Edwards Radial 5 Build

[canadianhorsepower]

Can you clarify your method with a steel part? Any mention of taps and alum clearly says for nonferrous parts.

Greg

I would prefer not to,not interested in an argument

all I will say is this LESS CARBON in your steel
less effect it's going to have
I usually get Liquid Alun and use a seringe to put it in the hole itself

I had read that to,(about nonferrous parts) and did test it on a regular 12l14 before, give it a try!!

 

[mu38&Bg#]

I would prefer not to,not interested in an argument

Thanks for the help.

 

[Brian-in-Oz]

G'day Mike et all - I have finally finished all of the heads (except cutting valve seats - have to make a tool for that). As suspected they took a lot of work - multiple set ups and many, many tool changes all very time consuming but non the less very satisfying. I found the main challenge maintaining concentration - not the sort of task to tackle with mates hanging over your shoulder drinking beer. The inlet and exhaust flats and horizontal fins were machined with the work still in the chuck mounted on the rotary table. The ports and vertical fins were done with the head mounted in one of three positions on an angle plate attached to the rotary table. I drilled and tapped the angle plate to utilize three of the head mounting holes so that the valve guide and glo-plug holes could be through drilled with the drill passing through into the slot in the the angle plate.
Just a word of caution - I would suggest drilling the holes (to be tapped 2/56) for securing the inlet manifold and exhaust flanges .213 deep not the .313 on the plans as it is way too close to breaking through into the recess where the top of the cylinder rests. I think .213 is plenty of thread for the task.
I may have a bit of a break before getting back into things (the Fun Police is on my back to do some plumbing) and I think it will be a more mundane part like the rocker mounts. OK that's about it - But more importantly how is your project coming along - Did you ever get to hear from Hemingways ?

Cheers all - Brian th_wav

 

[xjs]

Brian, those heads are magnificent, an art exhibit all on their own. They seem altogether too beautiful to be subjected to hundreds of explosions every minute, all that hammering and banging.

But, a job's a job, I guess. And just because you happen to be pretty doesn't exempt you from your calling.

Thanks for the details on your set-ups...I'm keeping a file on all of these. Progress on my own motor has slowed a little...I'm traveling on the mainland just now, so it'll be a couple of weeks before I get back to the shop, and even then it'll be intermittent -- a couple of special projects at work are taking way too much of my time. Never thought I'd be looking forward to Retirement, but now I just see it as potential shop-time and it's taking on much more appeal.

Finishing up the pistons are next on my list, and the rest of the related assembly, including the interrupted crankshaft. In odd moments recently I've fabricated a few minor parts, prepared the idler gear assemblies, and made a few more tools for the shop -- including a ball-turner, something I've wanted for a couple of years, and could finally rationalize as being necessary for making the ends of the R5's pushrods. I'll send pics when I get back to the Islands.

No, I never did hear back from Hemingway, mysteriously. I did however follow through on your suggestion of a machine-tapping holder from Shars, and it's a real boon--I've had occasion to use it a couple f times and it makes the world of difference. Suddenly I'm in control of small taps, realizing I never really was before. Once again, sir, I am in your debt.

It's also got me thinking that, when time permits, I'd like to make me a micro drill press, along the lines of the machine designed by the late Jerry Howell. It's helped me put a higher premium on sensitivity and delicacy. Sounds stickily New-Age-y, I know, but perhaps I'll end up spending a lot less on broken drills and taps, and less time howling at the ceiling after screwing up a part.

All best...looking forward to seeing what you come up with along the lines of a valve seat cutter.

Aloha nui loa,

 

[aarggh]

Fantastic work Brian! I'm amazed at how good a job the slotting saw did on them, very nice!

cheers, Ian

 

[Brian-in-Oz]

Fantastic work Brian! I'm amazed at how good a job the slotting saw did on them, very nice!

cheers, Ian

Thanks for your comments Ian - this project is the first time I have used (even seen) slitting saws and was pleasantly surprised at how nicely they cut. The heads were done with a 40 thou. 60 tooth saw running at 1450 RPM in the mill with one pass 150 thou. deep on the horizontal fins and two passes 125 thou. deep on the vertical fins. I kept the blade well lubricated with CRC while cutting. More challenging was cutting the six 15 thou. slots in the oil rings (see photo) but the blade also cut the cast iron like butter (cut dry this time).
I have been working on the Forest Edwards Radial for a bit over two years and the end is at last in sight. Thank again for your interest.

Cheers - enjoy the weekend Brian *beer*

 

[Brian-in-Oz]

Brian, those heads are magnificent, an art exhibit all on their own. They seem altogether too beautiful to be subjected to hundreds of explosions every minute, all that hammering and banging.

But, a job's a job, I guess. And just because you happen to be pretty doesn't exempt you from your calling.

Thanks for the details on your set-ups...I'm keeping a file on all of these. Progress on my own motor has slowed a little...I'm traveling on the mainland just now, so it'll be a couple of weeks before I get back to the shop, and even then it'll be intermittent -- a couple of special projects at work are taking way too much of my time. Never thought I'd be looking forward to Retirement, but now I just see it as potential shop-time and it's taking on much more appeal.

Finishing up the pistons are next on my list, and the rest of the related assembly, including the interrupted crankshaft. In odd moments recently I've fabricated a few minor parts, prepared the idler gear assemblies, and made a few more tools for the shop -- including a ball-turner, something I've wanted for a couple of years, and could finally rationalize as being necessary for making the ends of the R5's pushrods. I'll send pics when I get back to the Islands.

No, I never did hear back from Hemingway, mysteriously. I did however follow through on your suggestion of a machine-tapping holder from Shars, and it's a real boon--I've had occasion to use it a couple f times and it makes the world of difference. Suddenly I'm in control of small taps, realizing I never really was before. Once again, sir, I am in your debt.

It's also got me thinking that, when time permits, I'd like to make me a micro drill press, along the lines of the machine designed by the late Jerry Howell. It's helped me put a higher premium on sensitivity and delicacy. Sounds stickily New-Age-y, I know, but perhaps I'll end up spending a lot less on broken drills and taps, and less time howling at the ceiling after screwing up a part.

All best...looking forward to seeing what you come up with along the lines of a valve seat cutter.

Aloha nui loa,

Thanks Michael - today I started making a tube bender for the inlet - exhaust tubes ( a Hemingway kit I purchased some time ago). I will keep you informed.
Say G'day to my relatives in Philomath Or. and friends in Amarillo Tx. while you are on the "Mainland".

Cheers Brian *discussion*

 

[///]

For our friends in the US, let me say that the Aussie 5 cent coin in Brian's photo above is a smidge over 3/4" diameter.

Brian, amazing work mate!
I keep coming back to this thread for inspiration.

As photography is also one of my hobbies, I feel I must commend you for the use of a backdrop and the overall quality of your photo's.

 

[Lakc]

The heads were done with a 40 thou. 60 tooth saw running at 1450 RPM in the mill with one pass 150 thou. deep on the horizontal fins and two passes 125 thou. deep on the vertical fins.

Brian, what diameter was the saw? How deep were the teeth?

 

[metalmad]

WOW those heads really are a thing of beauty Brian
Pete

 

[gbritnell]

Outstanding work on the heads. I too resorted to using a slitting saw for applications like yours. It sure beats the nail biting trying to do it in the lathe. I look forward to the completion. I'm sure it will be as nice as the heads are.
gbritnell

 

[Brian-in-Oz]

Brian, what diameter was the saw? How deep were the teeth?

G'day Jeff - saw used on the heads is 3" in dia. and depth of teeth .100" . I purchased it online from an Australian supplier and was advertised as " quality Polish made product not Chinese". It is however branded MAXWELL which is an Indian manufacturer - none the less it performed faultlessly and is still nice and sharp. Heads are 7075 aluminum.
The slitting saw used for oil ring was 2"" dia. X .015 thick with 150 teeth. I could not find one this size from a local supplier and sourced direct from Thurston's in Smithfield RI. They were most helpful.

Cheers Brian Thm:

 

[jwcnc1911]

Brian,

Have you made the cam plate yet? I was considering this engine just before I got hooked on Stirlings. I even had a little trouble just modeling it in Solidworks which put me off a little more. Do you have CAD/CAM software? I'm interested to see how you make the cam.

 

[Brian-in-Oz]

Brian,

Have you made the cam plate yet? I was considering this engine just before I got hooked on Stirlings. I even had a little trouble just modeling it in Solidworks which put me off a little more. Do you have CAD/CAM software? I'm interested to see how you make the cam.

G'day JW or rather G'late night for you in Alabama. Yes I have made the cam and have posted a description and some photo's on page 3 of this thread. I do not have any CAD/CAM software or any CNC equipment. If you have any other queries please do not hesitate to ask as I will attempt to answer to the best of my abilities.

Cheers Brian Thm:

 

[Brian-in-Oz]

For our friends in the US, let me say that the Aussie 5 cent coin in Brian's photo above is a smidge over 3/4" diameter.

Brian, amazing work mate!
I keep coming back to this thread for inspiration.

As photography is also one of my hobbies, I feel I must commend you for the use of a backdrop and the overall quality of your photo's.

Thanks for your comments Simon - as you have probably guessed photography is also one of my other interests. I take the photo's in one of those collapsable light boxes with a daylight balanced light bulb each side - gives a nice diffused lighting effect. Stay tuned.

Cheers Brian wEc1

 

[Brian-in-Oz]

Today I finished making the tube bender. It is basically a Hemingway kit project but I modified it to give more secure clamping of the tube. Hopefully this will enable bending the brass tube inlet and exhaust pipes without deforming the tube to much. I intend to anneal the brass and fill with Woods Metal before forming. To help with obtaining the correct angles of 45deg. and 115deg I scribed these angles on the former and will keep all informed as whether or not this tool works or finishes up in the scrap metal box.

Cheers Brian :shrug:

 

[xjs]

I'd resolved not to post anything until I had something to show...still haven't finished all five pistons though I'm almost there, having scrapped seven along the way...but just had to compliment you on that bending arrangement, Brian. Lovely stuff, and I've ordered the same kit from Hemingway.

I've also ordered a cheapie light box from Amazon. If I ever get these pistons finished I want to be able to photograph them properly, just as if they came from Oz.

I'm beginning to seriously wonder if i'm actually going to finish this project this year as planned. But you must be looking at a light-up date sometime soon, yes?

m

 

[Brian-in-Oz]

I'd resolved not to post anything until I had something to show...still haven't finished all five pistons though I'm almost there, having scrapped seven along the way...but just had to compliment you on that bending arrangement, Brian. Lovely stuff, and I've ordered the same kit from Hemingway.

I've also ordered a cheapie light box from Amazon. If I ever get these pistons finished I want to be able to photograph them properly, just as if they came from Oz.

I'm beginning to seriously wonder if i'm actually going to finish this project this year as planned. But you must be looking at a light-up date sometime soon, yes?

m

Gd,evening Michael - great to see you back on the job. First light up time (hopefully) is still a bit into the future even though there is light at the end of the tunnel I am a slow worker. I would appreciate your opinion on a few issues remaining in the build and how you intend to tackle them but first the bender. In the Hemingway kit plans there are measurements for several formers but none are for a 1/2" radius one to suit the required OD of the tube. I have only made one former of 1/2" radius to do the job and will make them if and when required for any future projects.
1. Valve springs and oil pump plunger spring. I notice you have a spring on you oil pump plunger. Have you managed to source off the shelf springs - had them specially made or wound them yourself? I have not been able to find any off the shelf springs the right specs. in Australia although there is a company in Perth that will apparently make them. I do actually have an unmade spring winder kit (also Hemingway - I think we are keeping them solvent) but am unsure what path to take. What do you reckon?
2. Gaskets - the plans show no gaskets under the barrels or heads and these will be essential. I have ordered some 1/64" gasket material from Omni Models which I hope will be OK but this will have some effect on compression ratio. the plans call for machining an amount off the top of the cylinders to adjust compression ratio on all cylinders to 8.5 to 1. I believe this is necessary anyhow to compensate for the fact that the master rod and link rods in the Edwards Radial are equally spaced where as ideally some compensation needs to be made for the fact that the non articulated master rod has a slightly different TDC than the link rods. ( the math is way beyond me).
What did you plan on re gaskets?
3. Have you had any thoughts on a glo driver - it is likely it may need one especially at low RPM - and lets face it - that's where these things really get the pulse racing?
Well that's probably enough to churn around for now - the only thing I have done since the bender is make the idler shaft and bore and recess the pinion gear. Looking forward to photo's of the pistons taken in the new light box.

Cheers for now - Brian scratch.gif

 

[xjs]

Gd,evening Michael - great to see you back on the job. First light up time (hopefully) is still a bit into the future even though there is light at the end of the tunnel I am a slow worker. I would appreciate your opinion on a few issues remaining in the build and how you intend to tackle them but first the bender. In the Hemingway kit plans there are measurements for several formers but none are for a 1/2" radius one to suit the required OD of the tube. I have only made one former of 1/2" radius to do the job and will make them if and when required for any future projects.
1. Valve springs and oil pump plunger spring. I notice you have a spring on you oil pump plunger. Have you managed to source off the shelf springs - had them specially made or wound them yourself? I have not been able to find any off the shelf springs the right specs. in Australia although there is a company in Perth that will apparently make them. I do actually have an unmade spring winder kit (also Hemingway - I think we are keeping them solvent) but am unsure what path to take. What do you reckon?
2. Gaskets - the plans show no gaskets under the barrels or heads and these will be essential. I have ordered some 1/64" gasket material from Omni Models which I hope will be OK but this will have some effect on compression ratio. the plans call for machining an amount off the top of the cylinders to adjust compression ratio on all cylinders to 8.5 to 1. I believe this is necessary anyhow to compensate for the fact that the master rod and link rods in the Edwards Radial are equally spaced where as ideally some compensation needs to be made for the fact that the non articulated master rod has a slightly different TDC than the link rods. ( the math is way beyond me).
What did you plan on re gaskets?
3. Have you had any thoughts on a glo driver - it is likely it may need one especially at low RPM - and lets face it - that's where these things really get the pulse racing?
Well that's probably enough to churn around for now - the only thing I have done since the bender is make the idler shaft and bore and recess the pinion gear. Looking forward to photo's of the pistons taken in the new light box.

Cheers for now - Brian scratch.gif

Yo Brian --

Light box hasn't arrived yet but...Hallelujah!!...I've finally managed to bring five serviceable pistons into the world. Actually, six, since I've finally learned to make some spares when making multiples, just in case. Such a silly thing to do the same setups over and over again, even if practice does make perfect. Here they are, photographed the old-fashioned way...


....and, here's the sad little graveyard of piston-wannabes that just somehow stumbled into blind alleys along the way, never to make it out again...

This little pile will certainly come in useful if I ever do a casting project. Meanwhile it just serves to keep me humble.

There have been other little bits and pieces that have gotten done over the last month or so...the master rod...


...some Link Rods to keep it company...

...a few Valve Spring Retainers, just on the off chance I may one day get around to machining some Cylinder Heads...

...an Idler Shaft with some relevant Gears...

and even a Ball Cutter for eventually turning those tricky ends on the Pushrods. (It's first and only product so far has been the ball on its own handle).


It still seems like an awfully long way to go, but an inch at a time, then another inch...

Brian, the best source I know for springs (and for most hardwatre, come to think of it) is McMaster-Carr. The spring for the Oil Pump, as well as the valve springs, are stock items from them. On gaskets: Yes, I'd assumed that they would be necessary, but hadn't got around to sourcing them yet, or thinking much about how to reconcile that with the compression ratio issue. Haven't even figured how I'm going to even measure the CR...is there a gadget for that, I wonder?

You're also way ahead of me on concerns about the glo-plug at low RPM's, thpough I have been nursing an idea that I'd like to investigate a spark mechanism rather than a glo. Hemingway's Hall Effect kit seems a possible candidate. That's as far as I've got.

Got to run...SWMBO calls.

 

[gbritnell]

Hi Brian,
In regard to your response in post #118 here is what I did for my master rod/slave rod placement when I was building my radial. Although I had read information on the subject many years ago in one of the issues of SIC I couldn't remember exactly what it said nor did I want to go through boxes of magazines to find it so I did my own layout.
The layout plan behind my thinking was that each cylinder is equally spaced about the crankcase so they are on 72 degree spacing. The master rod was drawn with the proper length and throw sizing. In picture #1 starting from the right I have the sequence of master rod/slave rod pin positions for each TDC point of the appropriate cylinder. I figured that by rotating the crank 72 degrees (cylinder spacing) and drawing a line through the center of the cylinder until it intersected with the throw circle this should give me the correct pin spacing. Quite naturally the camring is going to be equally spaced relative to TDC so therefore each of the cylinders should be at TDC at the same time.
When I started designing my engine the basics for it were taken from the Morton M5 radial engine. Their pins were equally space about the master rod. Knowing that there should be some compensation I did the layout. As can be seen by the 2 bottom views there is a difference between the 2 spacings. Whether mine is totally correct or not I can't say but it should be much closer than than just equal 72 degree spacing.
gbritnell

View attachment ENGINE RADIAL ROD LAYOUT.pdf