Steam powered Skiff where do I start?

[fcheslop]

Hi, if as you originally posted you wish to build around the 3ft mark have a look for Peter Arnot V twin design
Im not sure what is available on the net ,It is a very good design of about 5/16 or 3/8 bore and around 1/2 stroke from memory. He did a build in one of the Model Boat mags early 1990s from memory. The build included a nice boiler and burner set up .He later did another series with a V4 all oscillators and the V4s boiler is a very good steamer I used this one in my River Queen
The engine John posted the link to is also a nice runner although from memory I think there was an error over the regulator holes positioning or the servo arm.
I have built that idea to Basil Harley Victoria dimensions around 5/16 bore 1/2 stroke
The Victoria plant drawings are on the John tom site
There are some drawings for nice piston valved engine its again a V twin and again you get foreward/reverse from one servo. They have been redrawn to twice the original design and you can find the original drawings on the net.
http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/accueil/index.html
http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/telechargements4/bicylindre-en-v.pdf
http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/telechargements4/ensemble-marin-oscillant.pdf
The last link is for Basil Harleys Victoria steam plant and the Hull drawing is still available from the link John gave you to the plans site
best wishes

 

[Shipdisturber]

Fraser,

I don't want to distract from Shipdisturber's inquiry unless what I am showing might help a little.

I don't have the room in my shop for making anything large, despite people coming over in the next month to help me clear it out so that I can get back to model engineering.

I am with you on oscillators, as far as I am concerned, if you want an easy sailing launch, that has to be the way to go. My Puffin engine sailed almost every weekend for over 10 years and never let me down. It has now been fully restored and is now in my collection, despite it being worth a fair amount of money.

The many I made were only done to buy new tooling for my shop, 15 vertical and 3 paddler engines. If and when I get back into my shop, I have a lot of projects to do and finish off, but the engines are fairly easy to make, and if someone wants me to do it, they would have to wait until I was ready.

BTW, they were based around this engine, bottom left, click on the picture to download the plans.

http://jpduval.free.fr/Plans_moteurs_vapeur_p1.htm

I just made it a lot easier to make and I put right a few design and positioning problems.

Another BTW, one of the easiest launches you could build is called PUFFIN MUFFIN. flat bottomed and can easily be scaled down 50% from it's 56" length. I made 2 steam plants for people who made the hull and they sailed perfectly, plus being flat bottomed, they can easily take the weight.


[URL="https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/puffing-muffin-mm1405-steam-launch-plan/"][/URL]

John

Is there any plans like this in English?

 

[Shipdisturber]

Hi, if as you originally posted you wish to build around the 3ft mark have a look for Peter Arnot V twin design
Im not sure what is available on the net ,It is a very good design of about 5/16 or 3/8 bore and around 1/2 stroke from memory. He did a build in one of the Model Boat mags early 1990s from memory. The build included a nice boiler and burner set up .He later did another series with a V4 all oscillators and the V4s boiler is a very good steamer I used this one in my River Queen
The engine John posted the link to is also a nice runner although from memory I think there was an error over the regulator holes positioning or the servo arm.
I have built that idea to Basil Harley Victoria dimensions around 5/16 bore 1/2 stroke
The Victoria plant drawings are on the John tom site
There are some drawings for nice piston valved engine its again a V twin and again you get foreward/reverse from one servo. They have been redrawn to twice the original design and you can find the original drawings on the net.
http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/accueil/index.html
http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/telechargements4/bicylindre-en-v.pdf
http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/telechargements4/ensemble-marin-oscillant.pdf
The last link is for Basil Harleys Victoria steam plant and the Hull drawing is still available from the link John gave you to the plans site
best wishes

Thank you fcheslop I will use these plans because I can read them, takes away the guess work on my part.

I noticed the plans you and Blogwitch show are more two or more cylinders, is a single cylinder not very effective? Can you reverse the engines on the two cylinder but not on the single cylinder? Is it best to go with two or more cylinders?

 

[bouch]

Thank you fcheslop I will use these plans because I can read them, takes away the guess work on my part.

I noticed the plans you and Blogwitch show are more two or more cylinders, is a single cylinder not very effective? Can you reverse the engines on the two cylinder but not on the single cylinder? Is it best to go with two or more cylinders?

Two cylnider engines are self starting. When one cylinder is on dead center, the other it mid-stroke. Single cylinder engines, when the engine is on dead center, you need to manually flip it over to get it started.

I downloaded the plans for the oscillator with boiler (ensemble-marin-oscillant.pdf), and note that, as designed, its only a display engine, as the crankshaft isn't designed to have a take-off to the prop.

 

[fcheslop]

Bouch, the drive to the prop is via an extended big end pin this then fits into a slot in the disc style coupling
Iv not built the engine as I built it as per the Duval with Victorias bore, stroke and porting.
The hull is around 31inches Iv fitted a 4 blade prop and the boiler is a little lacking but nothing to cry about
Most double acting twins are self starting that is inline and 90 degree V but not 60degree
You can build a self starting double acting piston valved single with forward /reverse
I will let you figure that one out:hDe:
http://www.typhoon-motors.com/liste.php?cat=2&mr=Moteurs TM1
http://www.typhoon-motors.com/lecte...This=true&TB_iframe=true&height=400&width=600
Just use Google to translate and 25.4 to convert to imperial
kind regards
frazer

 

[fcheslop]

Found this thread about building the Stuart Turner V twin from castings by much missed gentleman
The castings are still available from Stuart Turner although it could be fabricated or just buy the upright and drawings
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/sho...lding-a-Stuart-V-Twin-oscillator-Boiler/page3
http://www.stuartmodels.com/item/89/stuart-twin-oscillator
http://www.stuartmodels.com/products/spare-parts
Hope this is of some help.
kind regards
frazer

 

[Shipdisturber]

I like the idea of an inline two cylinder. Where can I find plans for one like that? The reason for this is I can use a single cylinder block, makes machining easier.

 

[Blogwitch]

Once you go for an in line twin with a cylinder block you are then into either a slide valve or piston valve.

For a slide valve you change over mechanically to obtain fwds/rev and involves an extra servo to operate (3 channels). Piston valve can operate very similar to an oscillator, but does require very fine machining of the spool valve to get them steam loss free, but they can run with two servos.

Both types are usually a bit larger than oscillators.


John

 

[fcheslop]

As Iv already mentioned Malcolm Beeks MB22 3/8 bore and stroke is ideal for smaller boats but as per Johns comments you will need to convert it to piston valve or use a gearbox, variable pitch prop, Kitchner rudder or some form of valve gear to reverse it
An oscillator is a much simpler alternative although not to scale for this type of boat well ok some launches did use a wobble and you can still get casting for an engine to power a 26ft+ boat.
On smaller valved engines from my experience when fitted with reversing gear like Stephensons, Joy or what ever has linkages once a bit of wear occurs they simply dont restart all the time this leeds to wet feet and soggy trauser legs a thing Im not keen on and a picture of me in my underskippers recovering a boat is not a pleasant sight
That my reasoning for using the wobbler engine rather than a fixed cylinder engine.Should you want to build the MB22 and its reversing gearbox Im sure if you contacct Malcolm on Paddleducks or Modelboat mayhem he will either sell or give you a copy and he may still have his boiler drawing available I simply dont know you woud have to ask the question
Heres a link to my little MB22 that is going into a Thames launch kit build a first for me as Iv never built from a kit before. I simplified the valve gear using guage1 loco practice should you build it shout up and I will do one of Johns famous Crap O Cad drawings
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=26845&highlight=mb22
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S38lMY7FZv0[/ame]
Hope this makes some sense
cheers
frazer

 

[Blogwitch]

Fraser,

That engine you built looks very similar to the piston valve engine that I designed and built many moons ago while on Paddleducks, hence the name of the engine.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTuET23TkaI[/ame]

It wasn't made to go into anything particular, just an exercise in showing how an engine could be built by someone with little machining knowledge. It was designed and made on the run, coming up with solutions as the build progressed. The tall height of it is because it has 20mm stroke by 10mm bore, giving a lot of power with low down revs.
Many hundreds have now been built.

If more info is required, I can point you in the right direction the download 'the book' on how to build it.

John

 

[Shipdisturber]

Fraser,

That engine you built looks very similar to the piston valve engine that I designed and built many moons ago while on Paddleducks, hence the name of the engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTuET23TkaI

It wasn't made to go into anything particular, just an exercise in showing how an engine could be built by someone with little machining knowledge. It was designed and made on the run, coming up with solutions as the build progressed. The tall height of it is because it has 20mm stroke by 10mm bore, giving a lot of power with low down revs.
Many hundreds have now been built.

If more info is required, I can point you in the right direction the download 'the book' on how to build it.

John

Now my choices are much harder to make! That little inline looks fantastic, I assume it is reversible is that correct? The "V" configuration looks simpler to build is that correct? What I mainly need is a means to reverse the prop and it must be something I can build. For me buying a kit or otherwise takes away from my hobby I get much more pride out of doing it all myself. Right now I'm looking for material and a fellow on Craigslist has a couple of three feet by inch and a quarter precision brass rods I'm going to buy. Still looking for a bent or damaged bronze prop shaft and some aluminum billet for my stock.

 

[Shipdisturber]

https://youtu.be/6nUfhyo4wbs

One of my boats, scratch built loosely from kit drawings with independent oar control or switched for coordinated rowing. This my give you a better idea of my skill level.

 

[Blogwitch]

Things can get very difficult when choices are put in front of you.

But, download my 'book' and read it, it might give you an insight in what you want to do.

http://www.machinistblog.com/bogstandards-paddleduck-engine-plans/


With regards to the V- twin. I used to restore a fair amount of engines, from ones that had worn out to ones that would never have run because they were so badly made. It took a lot to get all the holes blocked up and re positioned into the correct place. This is the article on MEM which the video at the end should show you how nice the V - Twin runs.

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1689.0.html


John

 

[fcheslop]

Hi,
The little twin is not reversible as built but uses a reversing gearbox although Im thinking of using a Kitchner rudder or a variable pitched prop
The Piston valved V twin as John has already mentioned will need a bit more care
The oscillating V twin by Stuart Turner when built with care is a nice runner with a good bit of torque for its size
Theres no need to buy castings as they canbe fabricated
The model boat build once Iv finished a few other builds is a kit as in glass fibre hull and fittings although they are of such poor quality they will be remade
Iv attached some pics of my River Queen and her plant as well as a model of Bat
As you can see River Queen has a scratch build V twin wobbler and the whole model was scratch build mainly from scrap
cheers

 

[Shipdisturber]

Blogwitch your downloads are great very informative,they will come in very handy thank you. The equipment you have to work with is light years ahead of what I have, based on that I will have to make a four foot long boat just to compensate for my equipment and skill. fcheslop I have to have that boat! Do you have plans for that or did you already post them?

 

[fcheslop]

If its Bat you are referring to ,Im sorry to say I no longer have them or the model
It was sold to pay for a new lathe .I was lucky enough to measure up the full sized boat .
The clinker built boat is River Queen
Best wishes and good luck with what ever you decide to build and dont over worry about the tooling you have theres usually a way to work round problems and John is probably one of the best at explaining how to do so
kind regards
frazer

 

[Blogwitch]

S,

I used to apologise for having such great machinery with all the bells and whistles, just remember, they were paid for by someone else and most of the tooling came from selling or repairing small steam engines. I used to get around that tooling by showing or explaining how to do things without such machinery, but basic models.

Almost anything can be done on old or non specced machines, it just needs a bit of thinking about on how to do it, and that is what model engineering is all about. All my machines do is to allow me to work faster or accept larger pieces, because I can most probably take 10 times the depth of cut compared to a small lathe or mill.

So don't put your machinery down.
Where you might fall short is the tooling that goes with them, but most times there are work arounds.

I read a lot of 1900 to 1940 engineering books on how they did jobs in their era, and it is amazing what they could achieve without all the tooling we have nowadays. I used to scour all the download sites and pick the digital download books up for nothing. There is virtually nothing new any more, most processes and techniques are just 'rediscovered'.

Please don't use your old machinery and tooling as an excuse for not making small stuff, this crankshaft was made from a single piece of silver steel using an 8" four jaw chuck.

What will do a lot will also do a little.

But I think the engine it went into is a little small for your boat

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76_TtDfYPCo[/ame]


John

 

[Shipdisturber]

Well John that is really something! You are right about making use of what one has and to tell you the truth I like to avoid computer operated anything if I have a choice. I really am more comfortable with old school stuff I just have to take the bit by the teeth and run with it. I downloaded your book and will get to it a piece at a time. I'm trying to get a website up to sell my cramp prevention invention and my frustration level has peaked for this day.

 

[Shipdisturber]

Thank you for all the info! I think I'm going to start with a flame licker engine to hone my skills then graduate to a steam engine. Once I learn the basics and quirks of the flame licker I think I will get a better grip on steam and how that type of engine functions. My experience centres around diesel at the last count I've rebuilt around 260 big diesels and diagnosed over 1000 so steam is a new realm with similar parts. If I take on too much at first it may put out the flame for me.

 

[fcheslop]

Good luck with the flame gulper .
They canbe challenging to build and can become addictive I ended up building far to many gulpers and Stirlings just for the fun of it
cheers