F
First Build
Guest
Could someone recomend a good lathe, something suited to model making.
Thx
Thx
Help Support Home Model Engine Machinist Forum:
B
Bogstandard
Guest
Hi FB,
You are opening a bag of worms with this one.
First things first, you need to tell the members what is the maximum you want to spend (please remember to include tooling costs, which if you go for a lot, it can add up to more than the cost of a basic lathe). So MAX cost WITH tooling.
Also we would need to know what sort of models you are contemplating making, small engines or maybe a 3" scale traction engine.
How much room have you in your shop (or bedroom).
Are you willing to take on a second hand machine, with maybe a few problems on it.
Once this info is known, then the members should be able to help with suggestions.
It might seem a bit off hand, but your question could come back with answers ranging from a few hundred dollars to the sky is the limit, and be totally confusing for you.
John
You are opening a bag of worms with this one.
First things first, you need to tell the members what is the maximum you want to spend (please remember to include tooling costs, which if you go for a lot, it can add up to more than the cost of a basic lathe). So MAX cost WITH tooling.
Also we would need to know what sort of models you are contemplating making, small engines or maybe a 3" scale traction engine.
How much room have you in your shop (or bedroom).
Are you willing to take on a second hand machine, with maybe a few problems on it.
Once this info is known, then the members should be able to help with suggestions.
It might seem a bit off hand, but your question could come back with answers ranging from a few hundred dollars to the sky is the limit, and be totally confusing for you.
John
First of all, Welcome to HMEM! We are very happy to have you on board.
As far as lathes go, there is an enormous range of units to choose from as you have most likely disocovered. First and foremost, what size area do you have to set it up? This will likely be the biggest factor in your end decision, the second being funding. Which brings up budget. Your allotted funds will dictate where to start looking as well.
Beyond those two items, what scale or size of models will you be working in? Take a little time with this one as you may find yourself wanting to do bigger stuff later on. Allow for that in your search if your are able. Threading is something that some of the small units aren't able to do without some modifications being added to the base unit. If this is a must have ability, then seek the lathes that have threading capabilities.
There are many other options to consider when looking for a piece of machinery, and the best thing to do is study the capabilities of the machine and compare that to your needs. Aside from that, there are many companies that sell small scale lathes (big scale as well for that matter). Grizzly, Taig, Sherline, (to name a few) and many others sell these machines.
Let us know if you have further questions as the members here are always willing to help out!
Best Wishes,
Wareagle
As far as lathes go, there is an enormous range of units to choose from as you have most likely disocovered. First and foremost, what size area do you have to set it up? This will likely be the biggest factor in your end decision, the second being funding. Which brings up budget. Your allotted funds will dictate where to start looking as well.
Beyond those two items, what scale or size of models will you be working in? Take a little time with this one as you may find yourself wanting to do bigger stuff later on. Allow for that in your search if your are able. Threading is something that some of the small units aren't able to do without some modifications being added to the base unit. If this is a must have ability, then seek the lathes that have threading capabilities.
There are many other options to consider when looking for a piece of machinery, and the best thing to do is study the capabilities of the machine and compare that to your needs. Aside from that, there are many companies that sell small scale lathes (big scale as well for that matter). Grizzly, Taig, Sherline, (to name a few) and many others sell these machines.
Let us know if you have further questions as the members here are always willing to help out!
Best Wishes,
Wareagle
F
First Build
Guest
Thx for your very quick replies
Looks like I have come to the right place for advice
As for the size of lathe, it would have to fit in a averaged size garage (Car size), it could be new or second hand (eBay)
The lathe would only be used for models
The tooling and threading replies have made me think
I guess choosing a lathe is not as clear cut as I thourt
Looks like I have come to the right place for advice
As for the size of lathe, it would have to fit in a averaged size garage (Car size), it could be new or second hand (eBay)
The lathe would only be used for models
The tooling and threading replies have made me think
I guess choosing a lathe is not as clear cut as I thourt
Don't let our replies discourage you. What we are trying to help you do is make a purchase that will 1) perform all of your tasks needed for the work you will do, and 2) will be a machine that you will have years down the road without the "If I had only known ___ I would have bought a ___ instead of this" regret.
Your are right in that it is not a "black or white" decision. By identifying your needs, this will put you in the ballpark of what to be looking for, whether it be new, used, big, small, expensive, cheap, etc.
As far as tooling it up, the tooling over the course of time may and usually will add up to more than you pay for the machine itself. My advice here is to buy the machine you need, get a few bare basics to start making chips, and add the other tooling as needed. This way your outlay is spread over a period of time. (It's what I did; actually still doing)
The following is to be used as a guide, and in no way is stating that you need one size over another. Ultimately, the decision is yours, and we hope that you take the plunge into a very rewarding hobby! The guys here as you see are willing to help out, and as you narrow the list, there is likely a member here who is either using or has used the equipment you are considering and will be an asset in getting you further information on the unit(s).
There are a lot of people using lathes in the 7x12 range, and these lathes don't take up much room, nor are they enormously expensive. There are much smaller machines out there, and if you are doing very small work, these would be viable options. Personally, I have a 13x40, but my needs dictated the larger size machine for other things besides making models (matter of fact, I am looking at smaller machines myself for model making and other small work). Other sizes are certainly out there.
Some people have preffered to buy small machines to get going with the plans of "upgrading" in the future should they really like the hobby. This also has pros and cons with it (name one thing that doesn't!) in that if you have a unit that doesn't meet your needs, it may be such a discouragement that you drop the hobby all together and take up something else, or it may be the beginning of a tool fetish that some of us have (not meaning bad here!). Again, this is a personal choice, and may help you in you desicion process.
Hopefully this helps get you a direction to start looking.
Your are right in that it is not a "black or white" decision. By identifying your needs, this will put you in the ballpark of what to be looking for, whether it be new, used, big, small, expensive, cheap, etc.
As far as tooling it up, the tooling over the course of time may and usually will add up to more than you pay for the machine itself. My advice here is to buy the machine you need, get a few bare basics to start making chips, and add the other tooling as needed. This way your outlay is spread over a period of time. (It's what I did; actually still doing)
The following is to be used as a guide, and in no way is stating that you need one size over another. Ultimately, the decision is yours, and we hope that you take the plunge into a very rewarding hobby! The guys here as you see are willing to help out, and as you narrow the list, there is likely a member here who is either using or has used the equipment you are considering and will be an asset in getting you further information on the unit(s).
There are a lot of people using lathes in the 7x12 range, and these lathes don't take up much room, nor are they enormously expensive. There are much smaller machines out there, and if you are doing very small work, these would be viable options. Personally, I have a 13x40, but my needs dictated the larger size machine for other things besides making models (matter of fact, I am looking at smaller machines myself for model making and other small work). Other sizes are certainly out there.
Some people have preffered to buy small machines to get going with the plans of "upgrading" in the future should they really like the hobby. This also has pros and cons with it (name one thing that doesn't!) in that if you have a unit that doesn't meet your needs, it may be such a discouragement that you drop the hobby all together and take up something else, or it may be the beginning of a tool fetish that some of us have (not meaning bad here!). Again, this is a personal choice, and may help you in you desicion process.
Hopefully this helps get you a direction to start looking.
Tin Falcon
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Firstbuild:
setting up shop is a very personal decision. Having a garage shop makes life easier and less limiting. you should have room for a 10 -12 in lathe and a Bridgeport mill if that is what you want.
It sounds like you are totally new to machining and have no clue even what you need or what questions to ask. That is OK . First of all what part of the country are you from?? If you can get to a Model engineering show you can ask a lot of questions of the folks that have made models like you are interested in. Also if there is a model club in your are that can help. And last but lot least read books for info. Are there any used machinery dealers that you can browse and talk to?? Also do you have a college or tech school in the area that offer night classes. I was fortunate that I had already had machinist training and some experience with machine tools before I started shopping for my own stuff. My problem was the chasm between what I was used to and wanted and what I had room for and could afford.
Tel us where you are from if someone here is somewhat close we can point you in the right direction.
Tin Falcon
setting up shop is a very personal decision. Having a garage shop makes life easier and less limiting. you should have room for a 10 -12 in lathe and a Bridgeport mill if that is what you want.
It sounds like you are totally new to machining and have no clue even what you need or what questions to ask. That is OK . First of all what part of the country are you from?? If you can get to a Model engineering show you can ask a lot of questions of the folks that have made models like you are interested in. Also if there is a model club in your are that can help. And last but lot least read books for info. Are there any used machinery dealers that you can browse and talk to?? Also do you have a college or tech school in the area that offer night classes. I was fortunate that I had already had machinist training and some experience with machine tools before I started shopping for my own stuff. My problem was the chasm between what I was used to and wanted and what I had room for and could afford.
Tel us where you are from if someone here is somewhat close we can point you in the right direction.
Tin Falcon
I too am interested in buying my first lathe. I have done some reading and taken a couple of machine shop classes at a local college (retired, lots of time on my hands). The school has Jet lathes and mills. Lathes are about 13 X 40. Both the mills and lathes have a DRO and I got hooked on that.
I am interested in building small Stirling and other engines. Probably looking at a 9X20 in size. Usually I'll be turning brass, AL and some stainless. Also might be turning some titanium for some jewelry. Power in the shop (12 X13) is no problem. Space is a little tight. I will be taking classes for a few more years and have access to surface grinders, larger machines and a variety of CNC when I learn them. I mainly don't have time in class to finish turning flywheels and making the small brass parts necessary. I like to experiment with different types of finishes and tool design.
Main question: I have looked at new lathes Jet, Grizzly and Harbor Freight. My budget is ok for anyone of these machines. I realize tooling is a never ending process and won't be surprised if the cost equals the machine. Some day I might tackel a restore on one of the "oldie" type lathes. South bend, logan myford etc. What is the best lathe in the 9 X 20 range for me??
I am interested in building small Stirling and other engines. Probably looking at a 9X20 in size. Usually I'll be turning brass, AL and some stainless. Also might be turning some titanium for some jewelry. Power in the shop (12 X13) is no problem. Space is a little tight. I will be taking classes for a few more years and have access to surface grinders, larger machines and a variety of CNC when I learn them. I mainly don't have time in class to finish turning flywheels and making the small brass parts necessary. I like to experiment with different types of finishes and tool design.
Main question: I have looked at new lathes Jet, Grizzly and Harbor Freight. My budget is ok for anyone of these machines. I realize tooling is a never ending process and won't be surprised if the cost equals the machine. Some day I might tackel a restore on one of the "oldie" type lathes. South bend, logan myford etc. What is the best lathe in the 9 X 20 range for me??
Cedge
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rwells
You've probably noticed a bit of "soft stepping" in the answers you've gotten. Opinions sometimes run high on this particular subject. There are two schools on the subject. One simply believes there is no substitute for good old American Iron, while the other school is a bit more pragmatic about budgets, space, power availability and even skills needed to repair old iron. Therefore the subject gets handled somewhat gingerly, in order to avoid "Lathe Wars"
It sounds like you've begun to zero in on the 9x20 class lathes. Most will be of chinese origin unless you happen to luck up on a cheap South Bend, Logan or other classic piece. Enco and Jet both offer a pretty nice unit for reasonable prices and with pretty fair fit and finish. Harbor Freight also offers one, but a bit of time taken to inspect all three machines will show you that each importer invests in end quality at different levels. that is just how it is when importing Chinese iron. They only get as much quality as they pay for. There will almost certainly be some tune up to do.
The 9x20 lathes do have one small design flaw that seems to cover the whole spectrum of name brands. The plate that attaches the compound has to be beefed up and a couple of holes added to make it a bit more rigid. Not a big deal, but be aware of it. Parts and upgrades are not quite as common for the 9X20 machines as they are for its smaller cousin, the 7 X ** version, but little machine shop does carry a growing selection.
I've given consideration to upgrading from my 7 x 14 model to a 9x20 and still might if I'm eventually unable to find a decent buy in good classic iron. Read some of the 9X20 Yahoo groups. you'll soon see that with a little tweaking, most soon begin to love their 9x20 metal.
Tooling?... start with a few essentials, add to them when budgets allow and soon you'll begin making some of your own. Before long you have enough variety that you can do almost anything you set out to do.
Just don't let anyone make these decisions for you. They don't have the all the information you will have considered and they don't have to live all those years with a bad choice.
Steve
You've probably noticed a bit of "soft stepping" in the answers you've gotten. Opinions sometimes run high on this particular subject. There are two schools on the subject. One simply believes there is no substitute for good old American Iron, while the other school is a bit more pragmatic about budgets, space, power availability and even skills needed to repair old iron. Therefore the subject gets handled somewhat gingerly, in order to avoid "Lathe Wars"
It sounds like you've begun to zero in on the 9x20 class lathes. Most will be of chinese origin unless you happen to luck up on a cheap South Bend, Logan or other classic piece. Enco and Jet both offer a pretty nice unit for reasonable prices and with pretty fair fit and finish. Harbor Freight also offers one, but a bit of time taken to inspect all three machines will show you that each importer invests in end quality at different levels. that is just how it is when importing Chinese iron. They only get as much quality as they pay for. There will almost certainly be some tune up to do.
The 9x20 lathes do have one small design flaw that seems to cover the whole spectrum of name brands. The plate that attaches the compound has to be beefed up and a couple of holes added to make it a bit more rigid. Not a big deal, but be aware of it. Parts and upgrades are not quite as common for the 9X20 machines as they are for its smaller cousin, the 7 X ** version, but little machine shop does carry a growing selection.
I've given consideration to upgrading from my 7 x 14 model to a 9x20 and still might if I'm eventually unable to find a decent buy in good classic iron. Read some of the 9X20 Yahoo groups. you'll soon see that with a little tweaking, most soon begin to love their 9x20 metal.
Tooling?... start with a few essentials, add to them when budgets allow and soon you'll begin making some of your own. Before long you have enough variety that you can do almost anything you set out to do.
Just don't let anyone make these decisions for you. They don't have the all the information you will have considered and they don't have to live all those years with a bad choice.
Steve
I am not an expert by any means. I've only built one engine so far (a model airplane type barstock engine - model diesel) and it was built almost entirely on an unmodified Harbor Freight 9x20. There were a few milling operations which were done on my milling machine. There is tons of information on upgrades to the 9x20 which not only improve the lathe but also provide a large number of learning projects.
Some of the upgrades that I believe had the most positive impact are the compound 4 bolt plate and an uprade to a 5" Bison 3 jaw chuck.
The main thing that is a nuisance with my 9x20 is the automatic clutch when trying to turn grooves in cast iron or anything hard. Whenever the grooving tool grabs just a little the protection clutch starts spinning. It probably saves the lathe gears but is annoying none the less.
If you have space and the money buy BIG. A 13x40 would be really nice and a lot more rigid. You'll be able to make parts faster and take heavier cuts on a larger machine.
If you want to go all-in and have the resources start looking for a monarch 10EE. If your like me a 9x20 is a very good place to start. You can make some very nice parts on a 9x20.
===========================
As a side note - When I bought my mill I went big have never regretted it. I have a Bridgeport J-head and I run it using a VFD. My shop is in my two car garage...I can't fit a car in it anymore though.
Some of the upgrades that I believe had the most positive impact are the compound 4 bolt plate and an uprade to a 5" Bison 3 jaw chuck.
The main thing that is a nuisance with my 9x20 is the automatic clutch when trying to turn grooves in cast iron or anything hard. Whenever the grooving tool grabs just a little the protection clutch starts spinning. It probably saves the lathe gears but is annoying none the less.
If you have space and the money buy BIG. A 13x40 would be really nice and a lot more rigid. You'll be able to make parts faster and take heavier cuts on a larger machine.
If you want to go all-in and have the resources start looking for a monarch 10EE. If your like me a 9x20 is a very good place to start. You can make some very nice parts on a 9x20.
===========================
As a side note - When I bought my mill I went big have never regretted it. I have a Bridgeport J-head and I run it using a VFD. My shop is in my two car garage...I can't fit a car in it anymore though.
Spin Doctor
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Recomendation #1, the spindle should have a bore of at least 1. 062 or 1.125. At some point you are likely to be thinking about collets and 1 inch is the biggest size you can normally pass through a 5C.
Recomendation #2, the chuck mounting should be something that is standard and widely available. I know most lathes will come with 3 & 4 jaw, faceplate and centers but if they are oddballs and you need parts.
Recomendation #3, if you plan on mounting the lathe on a factory stand pay close attention to the height above floor for the spindles centerline. A machine that is too low is hard on the back.
Recomendation #4, think about the maximum size you will be working with. If you get into scale radials then you are dealing with crankcases that might be 5 to 6 inches in diameter. Cylinder finning will require a good stiff spindle. Machining crakshafts will mean interupted cuts. Extra mass in the machine will help.
But if you buy a lathe that has a fairly wide following I suspect that if you decide to sell it for your own reasons you should do all right.
Recomendation #2, the chuck mounting should be something that is standard and widely available. I know most lathes will come with 3 & 4 jaw, faceplate and centers but if they are oddballs and you need parts.
Recomendation #3, if you plan on mounting the lathe on a factory stand pay close attention to the height above floor for the spindles centerline. A machine that is too low is hard on the back.
Recomendation #4, think about the maximum size you will be working with. If you get into scale radials then you are dealing with crankcases that might be 5 to 6 inches in diameter. Cylinder finning will require a good stiff spindle. Machining crakshafts will mean interupted cuts. Extra mass in the machine will help.
But if you buy a lathe that has a fairly wide following I suspect that if you decide to sell it for your own reasons you should do all right.
There's also a reason that the 6" to 10"-size lathes are so popular-- they're a convenient size for most home shop machining uses. Big enough to do useful work and small enough that one or two people can move them around. Mostly under $1K to start.
You can do a ton with the smaller ones (Taig, Sherline) so long as you stay below a certain size and there are plenty of things outside what a 10" lathe can do, but IMO, 7-10 is the sweet spot between thinking "gah, I need a bigger lathe" and "gah, I have to hire a team of riggers to move this thing".
You can do a ton with the smaller ones (Taig, Sherline) so long as you stay below a certain size and there are plenty of things outside what a 10" lathe can do, but IMO, 7-10 is the sweet spot between thinking "gah, I need a bigger lathe" and "gah, I have to hire a team of riggers to move this thing".
BobWarfield
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Gents, no offense to the 9x20 crowd, but the 9x30's are a lot better made. They're based on the Emcos. They are also available in a smaller 8x18 size. These lathes need no improvements to compound clamp and are a lot more rigid. There's a nice Yahoo group dedicated to them:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/8x18Lathe/
These lathes are available very reasonably from Lathemaster and others. I think Harbor Freight even has the 8x18 models. The 9x30 are pretty comparable to a small Southbend in weight, which is a good indicator. There are a lot of other advantages too. I have seen no clutch problems as described. The lathes have a sort of simulated "D" style spindle instead of a threaded spindle, which I like a lot better. It's easier taking chucks on and off and you can run in reverse if so desired. These are change gear lathes, though I am starting to see some with a quick change gearbox too lately.
With that said, a 12x36 or larger is a lot more lathe, and I'll add that any lathe is better than no lathe at all! LOL
Cheers,
BW
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/8x18Lathe/
These lathes are available very reasonably from Lathemaster and others. I think Harbor Freight even has the 8x18 models. The 9x30 are pretty comparable to a small Southbend in weight, which is a good indicator. There are a lot of other advantages too. I have seen no clutch problems as described. The lathes have a sort of simulated "D" style spindle instead of a threaded spindle, which I like a lot better. It's easier taking chucks on and off and you can run in reverse if so desired. These are change gear lathes, though I am starting to see some with a quick change gearbox too lately.
With that said, a 12x36 or larger is a lot more lathe, and I'll add that any lathe is better than no lathe at all! LOL
Cheers,
BW
I've used a 9 by 20 for many years and it is a good useful lathe and did everything I wanted it to BUT it didn't have any power cross feed, quick change gear box, tumbler reverse and is very light for it's size so light cuts are the rule. I made a tumbler reverse for it and a new plate to mount the compound slide, and it proved a very accurate machine.
I recently upgraded to a 13 by 40 (Chinese) lathe and love it, wouldn't go back for anything. Once you go above 12" the machines become much more robust and solidly built. The 9" is in the process of having a tool post grinder attached to make it into a cylindrical grinder.
Don't worry about moving a bigger piece of equipment, "where their is a will, their is some sucker who will help you". My new one weighs 1300# with everything that can be taken off that can be, two of us moved it into my shop, in the back yard, by putting wheels on the bottom of the crate and using it as a dolly running it on sheets of plywood, then I built A-frames out of 2by4's doubled up and hoist it onto stands by myself, anything can be done with a little ingenuity.
I recently upgraded to a 13 by 40 (Chinese) lathe and love it, wouldn't go back for anything. Once you go above 12" the machines become much more robust and solidly built. The 9" is in the process of having a tool post grinder attached to make it into a cylindrical grinder.
Don't worry about moving a bigger piece of equipment, "where their is a will, their is some sucker who will help you". My new one weighs 1300# with everything that can be taken off that can be, two of us moved it into my shop, in the back yard, by putting wheels on the bottom of the crate and using it as a dolly running it on sheets of plywood, then I built A-frames out of 2by4's doubled up and hoist it onto stands by myself, anything can be done with a little ingenuity.
rake60
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The best advice anyone can give is buy the best machine you can within your hobby budget.
When you are ready to upgrade to a better machine you will have no problem selling the
one you bought to begin.
I've owned and run several lathes.
For me personally the 9 X 20 fits my work the best.
That is a PERSONAL opinion, and shouldn't be taken as anything more than that!
The biggest diameter part I have ever turned was a 5" flywheel.
The smallest was a .060 valve rod.
The longest was a 4" long adjustment needle for an antique engine I was restoring.
Buying a lathe requires consideration of what work you will expect to do on it, as well
as the budget you want to stay within.
No one can give you the perfect answer to that.
Rick
When you are ready to upgrade to a better machine you will have no problem selling the
one you bought to begin.
I've owned and run several lathes.
For me personally the 9 X 20 fits my work the best.
That is a PERSONAL opinion, and shouldn't be taken as anything more than that!
The biggest diameter part I have ever turned was a 5" flywheel.
The smallest was a .060 valve rod.
The longest was a 4" long adjustment needle for an antique engine I was restoring.
Buying a lathe requires consideration of what work you will expect to do on it, as well
as the budget you want to stay within.
No one can give you the perfect answer to that.
Rick
BobWarfield
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FWIW, here is my catalog of lathe modifications. You can learn a lot looking at these:
http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTLatheMods.htm
Best,
BW
http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTLatheMods.htm
Best,
BW
