Newbie with a bucket list item & in need of guidance!

[MayerMR]

Hey fellas,

New member here and I'm happy to have found this forum. I've been restoring vintage Ducati's and other Italian motorcycles for several years now and though I love it, and always will, I've had a longing desire to reproduce one of these engines as an item on my bucket list.

Now I know that there is a lot that goes along with such a declaration, so I'm not expecting this to be something that is accomplished by the end of the summer.

I'm writing today to get some guidance so I can stop spinning my wheels - I don't know which facet of design to start with. So firstly, I'd like to know where I should begin.

Mission: Replicate (and, in some ways, modify) classic single cylinder motorcycle engine.

Questions:

1. Metallurgy/Engine Design knowledge - What are some good resources to learn about what I'll need to know to accomplish my task? Books/etc.
2. Sandcasting - Can an engine this complicated be cast via home sand casting with any real chance of success or is die-casting (and subsequent costs more or less needed on something like this)?
3. CAD software - is there some good free software that can be recommended? Important aspects would be file format compatibility across platforms.
4. Machining knowledge/skill building - good books/resources?

Now, before everyone throat stomps me, please understand that *I understand* that this will be a progression. I do get that I'm going to have to do some significant skill building and practice before I can come close to the final goal (ie, doing smaller engine builds, casting practice, machining smaller items, etc). I'm also looking into some courses at local colleges, etc. I've still got another year of the GI Bill that I will put to good use. I enjoy reading boring technical books. Basically I'm looking forward to the challenge.

Looking forward to your feedback to help me formulate a plan of action!

Thank you!

S/F,

-Matt

 

[Swifty]

Hi Matt, I also have an interest in Ducati's, I completely rebuilt a 1973 860 GT, and always thought about building a model with bevel drive overhead cams, the engine would be noisy due to the bevel drives, but interesting all the same. I no longer have the bike, but still long for another bike project in the future. I assume that you want to copy the upright single engine, a challenge if you want to do your own castings.

Paul.

 

[ShopShoe]

MayerMR,

What do you have for a shop? Do you have a lathe? Do you have a mill?

Have you done any machining?

There are some good books out there and I will let others recommend them, but with the internet and forums like this one you can learn a lot without building a library first.

If you really are considering some classes, I would suggest that taking some CAD classes might help you get started and will help you decide what you need in the "design" side of your bucket list. With the progress of 3D printing, you might get closer to your goal that way. You would also learn what the (expensive) pro-level CAD programs are capable of and that might help you decide what you can and can't live with in a free or low-cost program you might use yourself.

On the machining side of things, you need to build some simple projects to get started. Many of us start with the Elmer's Engines which are available free:

http://www.john-tom.com/


There are many, many more things all of us can add for you. Welcome to the hobby and welcome to the forum.

--ShopShoe

 

[Tin Falcon]

I've still got another year of the GI Bill that I will put to good use.

Well then take advantage also of the public domain military manuals related to metalworking.
TC 9-524
http://www.mwdropbox.com/tutorials/ARMY-TC-9-524/9-524-index.html

 

[gus]

Well then take advantage also of the public domain military manuals related to metalworking.
TC 9-524
http://www.mwdropbox.com/tutorials/ARMY-TC-9-524/9-524-index.html

Thanks Tin,

Just downloaded. Found it very good.

Now at the Korat, Thailand where the former US AirBase is. Quite a prosperous town now. Some F-16s from Singapore are based here for training. We do not have ample air space for F-16 pilots back home to do daily regular training.

 

[Ken K]

20 years ago, I was at your skill level, and this is what I did:
No machining background, so went to the local junior college, and took lathe, and mill class. After you completed these class, you could take a "Special Project class", that let you work on your own projects. I built, hit-miss model engine kits. If you had a problem on how to do something, the lad techs,were great on helping you. The JC also had CNC a class, which I took, as all I made on a rotary table, was scrap!
With casting, that was harder. Ended up going the a week long casting class, at a art college. They were casting brass art work, but engine parts, are the same process. In order to cast a part, you need a pattern, for it, so you have to know how to cut the part, So learn to machine first.
Ken K

 

[kf2qd]

For one off engines you would probably be better off learning about CNC. Buying a CNC would just about be required to make a mold, but with it you could machine an engine case out of solid blocks. Look on this site under Minibike to see how one of the group here is building a scaled down Briggs & Stratton engine.

 

[MayerMR]

Hi Matt, I also have an interest in Ducati's, I completely rebuilt a 1973 860 GT, and always thought about building a model with bevel drive overhead cams, the engine would be noisy due to the bevel drives, but interesting all the same. I no longer have the bike, but still long for another bike project in the future. I assume that you want to copy the upright single engine, a challenge if you want to do your own castings.

Paul.

Paul, the 860 is a lovely bike; it's a shame you parted with it. Even the later square case twins are skyrocketing in value now! Now is the time to get into a Ducati *single* project if the mood takes you. Prices are going up but aren't stratospheric yet. There are many other models out there though that may strike you the same as a Ducati so if you have any questions or would like assistance in locating a good project let me know I always have my ear to the ground for that kind of stuff!

You are correct, in part, that I want to replicate the upright single. There are a few modifications that I want to make though.

• Change from right shift to left shift - will require internal changes of course
• Though I think the bevel gear is beautiful, it is mechanically inefficient. I want to run a chain driven overhead camshaft
• The port design is inefficient and outdated. I want to redesign the head for more direct airflow
• Reevaluate the oil pump design/placement and add an oil filter (they are currently a fine mesh screen that the oil is pumped through.

MayerMR,

What do you have for a shop? Do you have a lathe? Do you have a mill?

Have you done any machining?

There are some good books out there and I will let others recommend them, but with the internet and forums like this one you can learn a lot without building a library first.

If you really are considering some classes, I would suggest that taking some CAD classes might help you get started and will help you decide what you need in the "design" side of your bucket list. With the progress of 3D printing, you might get closer to your goal that way. You would also learn what the (expensive) pro-level CAD programs are capable of and that might help you decide what you can and can't live with in a free or low-cost program you might use yourself.

On the machining side of things, you need to build some simple projects to get started. Many of us start with the Elmer's Engines which are available free:

http://www.john-tom.com/


There are many, many more things all of us can add for you. Welcome to the hobby and welcome to the forum.

--ShopShoe

ShopShoe,

My shop is a pretty adept mechanic's shop, but not a machinist's shop at all. I've not purchased a lathe, etc. mainly because I'm not trained in their proper use and safety - not intent on flinging chunks of metal at myself. :fan:

I do intend to begin this process by taking the proper courses. I know that I need to improve the following knowledge:

• Basic Maching skill classes
• Welding classes
• Metal casting courses
• CAD courses

I very much look forward to digging into the Elmer's engines info tonight after work!

Well then take advantage also of the public domain military manuals related to metalworking.
TC 9-524
http://www.mwdropbox.com/tutorials/ARMY-TC-9-524/9-524-index.html

Will do. Hell I just finished with the Marine Corps this month and I didn't know about these manuals. They are Army though it seems so not too surprised that it's new information. Thanks for the resource!

20 years ago, I was at your skill level, and this is what I did:
No machining background, so went to the local junior college, and took lathe, and mill class. After you completed these class, you could take a "Special Project class", that let you work on your own projects. I built, hit-miss model engine kits. If you had a problem on how to do something, the lad techs,were great on helping you. The JC also had CNC a class, which I took, as all I made on a rotary table, was scrap!
With casting, that was harder. Ended up going the a week long casting class, at a art college. They were casting brass art work, but engine parts, are the same process. In order to cast a part, you need a pattern, for it, so you have to know how to cut the part, So learn to machine first.
Ken K

Ken,

Great advice. I have already looked into local junior colleges and have started to get some info regarding their offerings. The casting class you mention was a great idea; I didn't think to look at an art class for casting but that really was a great idea and it's been added to my list.

S/F,

-Matt

 

[Tin Falcon]

http://www.robins.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-091006-039.pdf

 

[Wizard69]

Paul, the 860 is a lovely bike; it's a shame you parted with it. Even the later square case twins are skyrocketing in value now! Now is the time to get into a Ducati *single* project if the mood takes you. Prices are going up but aren't stratospheric yet. There are many other models out there though that may strike you the same as a Ducati so if you have any questions or would like assistance in locating a good project let me know I always have my ear to the ground for that kind of stuff!



You are correct, in part, that I want to replicate the upright single. There are a few modifications that I want to make though.

By replicate do you mean 1:1 or some sort of scale model? I ask be causing pouring metal for a full size engine might be an issue. I say might because I know nothing about Ducati motor cycles. However there is a very good chance you may need to pour more metal that one person can easily handle.

Getting help with a pour isn't easy either. I'm not sure how to put this nicely but some guys should never come close to hot metal. I other words when pouring metal you have to be extremely selective about the people,around you and help you. Safety should be your top priority.

• Change from right shift to left shift - will require internal changes of course
  
• Though I think the bevel gear is beautiful, it is mechanically inefficient. I want to run a chain driven overhead camshaft
  
• The port design is inefficient and outdated. I want to redesign the head for more direct airflow
  
• bReevaluate the oil pump design/placement and add an oil filter (they are currently a fine mesh screen that the oil is pumped through.
  

ShopShoe,



My shop is a pretty adept mechanic's shop, but not a machinist's shop at all. I've not purchased a lathe, etc. mainly because I'm not trained in their proper use and safety - not intent on flinging chunks of metal at myself. :fan:



I do intend to begin this process by taking the proper courses. I know that I need to improve the following knowledge:

• Basic Maching skill classes
  
• Welding classes
  
• Metal casting courses
  
• CAD courses
  

I very much look forward to digging into the Elmer's engines info tonight after work!







Will do. Hell I just finished with the Marine Corps this month and I didn't know about these manuals. They are Army though it seems so not too surprised that it's new information. Thanks for the resource!







Ken,



Great advice. I have already looked into local junior colleges and have started to get some info regarding their offerings. The casting class you mention was a great idea; I didn't think to look at an art class for casting but that really was a great idea and it's been added to my list.



S/F,



-Matt

 

[kquiggle]

For an overview of free CAD software, take a look at the link below. A recent addition to the list is OnShape, which I have just barely begun to try out, but which looks very interesting:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/miscellaneous-projects/free-cad-software---overview

 

[BobsModels]

Hi

Here is a page you may have seen, scroll down to the Harley engine and click on it for a completely running 1/8 scale 1947. He built a 1/6 prototype before building the 1/8 scale engine. You might consider that concept ie building one larger than your final goal size.

http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Kieffer.htm

Bob

 

[Tin Falcon]

Matt;
I have tried many of the free cad software I will say you get what you pay for.

so I see a couple options for you :
1) You can try the free ones an likely struggle with /them it. It will only cost you time, but that has value.

2) watch some tutorials of a program called Cubify Design. then When you have a knowledge base and time download the 14 day free trial then work the tar out of it and see if you want to spend the $199 to buy it. http://cubify.com/products/design

3) and what may be the best option for you is search out and watch solid works tutorials .

http://www.solidworks.com/sw/resources/solidworks-tutorials.htm

If you have the time use that GI bill and take a class on solid works and last but not least Purchase a student copy of solid works as a veteran it will cost you a whopping $20 USD .

https://store.solidworks.com/veterans/default.php?command=Step1

Why waste your time with free stuff when you can get a copy of one of the best 3d design software packages for 20 bucks.


The SE of course has some limitations 12 month licence , not upgradeable , se watermark of printed drawings . files can not be read by the pro licence product.
Full licence agreement here.

https://www.solidworks.com/sw/education/6585_ENU_HTML.htm
Tin

 

[MayerMR]

By replicate do you mean 1:1 or some sort of scale model? I ask be causing pouring metal for a full size engine might be an issue. I say might because I know nothing about Ducati motor cycles. However there is a very good chance you may need to pour more metal that one person can easily handle.

Getting help with a pour isn't easy either. I'm not sure how to put this nicely but some guys should never come close to hot metal. I other words when pouring metal you have to be extremely selective about the people,around you and help you. Safety should be your top priority.

Sorry for the delayed response, been pretty busy at work lately.

When I said replicate I really meant 1:1. That said, I've been contemplating that idea more during my daily day-dream sessions and I think I may amend that state some. I still intend to build a full size engine, but instead of copying a Ducati single I think I want to design my own taking styling cues from the Ducati but going my own way.

Well noted on your safety precautions; as I mentioned before, I want to learn how to do this stuff right before jumping in and getting myself or someone else injured. Out of ignorant curiosity; whereabouts (in volume) do you think you start needing assistance in a pour? I'm a long way away from pouring anything at all, but just curious.

S/F,

-Matt

 

[Gerhardvienna]

I am not sure where to post this so Please move this where it should go.


For those who have any interest of all in machining I found a fantastic site.

http://techtv.mit.edu/

In the search box type in "Machine Shop" and there is a series of 10 machine shop related videos. They are professional quality and run 30-45mins each. They start out with the basics and cover both milling and lathe work. They also demonstrate how things are done not just explain them.

Hope you enjoy them as much as I did.

Hi Matt
Found this here in the forum while searching for different things, maybe right for you!
Search for "Machine Shop"1
Regards
Gerhard
PS: I have downloaded all 10 Videos, really interesting stuff.

 

[Hopper]

Sounds like an interesting project. Plenty of chain drive cam systems on Jap singles you can canibalize internal parts from if that is the way you want to go.

For full sized castings, yes you can use sandcasting for all of it - that's the way most older bike engines were made. That's a lot of alloy to melt and pour, so you might focus your efforts on learning how to make the patterns (the wooden dummies used to pack the sand around in sand casting) properly and then take them to an aluminum casting company and get them professionally poured. Just make sure they use the right alloy. (Another whole ball game!)

For machining crankshafts etc you will need a good size heavy-duty-ish lathe and probably a toolpost grinder for finishing crankpins and mainshafts. For machining the cases you will need a Bridgeport-sized mill or similar I think.

For the transmission gears and shafts I would save myself a world of bother and use the internals from some other engine available at the local biker wreckers. Those gears need to be ground, not something you can do without special machinery beyond backyard scope.

 

[Wizard69]

Sorry for the delayed response, been pretty busy at work lately.



When I said replicate I really meant 1:1. That said, I've been contemplating that idea more during my daily day-dream sessions and I think I may amend that state some. I still intend to build a full size engine, but instead of copying a Ducati single I think I want to design my own taking styling cues from the Ducati but going my own way.

Why a Ducati? As you may have guessed I'm not really into motor cycles per say. Is there so,etching special about the Ducati that you see as a challenge?

Well noted on your safety precautions; as I mentioned before, I want to learn how to do this stuff right before jumping in and getting myself or someone else injured. Out of ignorant curiosity; whereabouts (in volume) do you think you start needing assistance in a pour? I'm a long way away from pouring anything at all, but just curious.

This is a very difficult question to answer. If you expect to pour without mechanical aids then you need to think about your strength and ability to handle smoothly X amount of weight on the end of a long rod. Your foundry design is then a big factor in what you can handle. Will it have an overhead crane of any sort for ladle handling, maybe a two wheeled truck that can assist with crucible handling.

Personally I'm at the point health wise that I could handle ten pounds fine one day and the next it would be an accident waiting to happen. Back in my youth when I was working die casting we transferred a lot of metal from preheat furnaces into the die cast machines furnace. I can't remember what those ladle sizes where but they where fairly heavy. With casting out of the common furnace designs you have to lift the crucible out of the furnace (straight up), I really don't like such designs, in any event you have to pull off that move comfortably and safely. Remember everything is damn hot at this moment.

S/F,



-Matt

 

[MayerMR]

Why a Ducati? As you may have guessed I'm not really into motorcycles per say. Is there so,etching special about the Ducati that you see as a challenge?

This is a very difficult question to answer. If you expect to pour without mechanical aids then you need to think about your strength and ability to handle smoothly X amount of weight on the end of a long rod. Your foundry design is then a big factor in what you can handle. Will it have an overhead crane of any sort for ladle handling, maybe a two wheeled truck that can assist with crucible handling.

Personally I'm at the point health wise that I could handle ten pounds fine one day and the next it would be an accident waiting to happen. Back in my youth when I was working die casting we transferred a lot of metal from preheat furnaces into the die cast machines furnace. I can't remember what those ladle sizes where but they where fairly heavy. With casting out of the common furnace designs you have to lift the crucible out of the furnace (straight up), I really don't like such designs, in any event you have to pull off that move comfortably and safely. Remember everything is damn hot at this moment.

Wizard,

To answer your question - I'm generally just a big fan of the old Ducati engines and their designer, Fabio Taglioni. His solutions to a lot of engineering problems were just so incredibly far ahead of their time that I can't help but want to say that I rode his coattails. Not only that, but I think his designs are just gorgeous art and I would like to be so bold as to try to improve upon/modernize some of his designs (with 60+ years of technological evolution for me to lean on as well). Basically, I'd like to emulate someone whom I find to be a very interesting individual.

So back to the pouring of the molten metal...I think what I'm considering more now is pouring of the smaller components rather than the really large pieces like the cases. I would like to look at some local metal casters (which I just so happen to live near some here in Texas...very lucky...) to do a small run of them to ensure I get a good pour, not to mention it's safer.

Some other GREAT NEWS that I've found is that I qualify to receive a discounted student edition (ie, already deeply discounted) version of Solidworks that includes flow modelings, scan to 3d, etc as I'm a veteran. It should be here tomorrow or Friday!

I've also reached out to a couple of firms in the area that train on Solidworks and lo and behold, one of the firms, "GoEngineer", offers their four day intro course to veterans for free...that's pretty amazing and I'm beyond excited to get enrolled in one of their upcoming courses! I have to admit, I feel like I'm striking some gold this week, need to go buy a lotto ticket

So things are going well with my Bucket List project thus far. Now I'm off to learn about efficient air flow and squish bands in cylinder head design...

 

[MayerMR]

Sounds like an interesting project. Plenty of chain drive cam systems on Jap singles you can canibalize internal parts from if that is the way you want to go.

For full sized castings, yes you can use sandcasting for all of it - that's the way most older bike engines were made. That's a lot of alloy to melt and pour, so you might focus your efforts on learning how to make the patterns (the wooden dummies used to pack the sand around in sand casting) properly and then take them to an aluminum casting company and get them professionally poured. Just make sure they use the right alloy. (Another whole ball game!)

For machining crankshafts etc you will need a good size heavy-duty-ish lathe and probably a toolpost grinder for finishing crankpins and mainshafts. For machining the cases you will need a Bridgeport-sized mill or similar I think.

For the transmission gears and shafts I would save myself a world of bother and use the internals from some other engine available at the local biker wreckers. Those gears need to be ground, not something you can do without special machinery beyond backyard scope.

Hopper,

You're very right and that is my plan. Actually, I plan is to cannibalize more than just cam chain and gears, but, as you allude to, many of the inner portions of other engines that will be identified prior to finalizing my crankcase specs. Specifically, I'll be locating a crankshaft/rod/piston/transmission and of course bearings that are from popular engines and that are readily available without costing a fortune. The biggest void that I have in the above would be choosing an "off the shelf" so-to-speak transmission that already has ratios that are close or would be appropriate for the powerband of my new engine. But I'm putting the ole cart before the horse at this point.

Thanks everyone, y'all's help really had been indispensable in helping me solidify the course of action for this project.

S/F,

-Matt