Made In China

[rake60]

Most of us own at least one Sieg manufactured machine.
Their made in China and can be bought for 1/2 the cost of a
domestic manufactured machine.

Why? Because the labor rate to manufacture the machine is $14 a day
verses $17 an hour here. That same worker in the farming fields would be
making $3 a day. That's a BIG step up!

It's easy for us to sit here in our air conditioned houses, bitching about the
cost of gasoline to feed our $20,000 vehicles, to judge those standards.

About 230 years ago the great empire of England was hoping a renegade
group of colonists would starve to death for their ambitions.
They didn't....

Is it any different?

I hear bitches about human rights and environmental pollution from China factories.
When I was 10 years old I remember the news casts of lives lost that day in the
steel mills of Pittsburgh. I can remember going there to see a Pirates baseball game
when you couldn't see the city as you approached it.
The rivers ran orange with the discharge of slag from the steel mills.
It was known as the "Smoky City".

Times change and they always will.

Made in Japan at one time meant cheap and shoddy.
Today if you want the BEST for machining tools you buy Mitutoyo.
That isn't an Irish company is it?

I'm sorry for the rant.
I just get a little pissed off by the elitist attitudes I see sometimes.
Take a true look at you own grandfathers work conditions.
No, you don't even need to go that far back.
Consider your father's job.

Now tell me that a developing country has no right to develop into
a world economy.

You'll never convince a people they or their products are inferior with
words.

Anyone who wants to do some real China bashing in the machine tools
area can find a lot of comrades in other home machining forums.
They have guys there that can REALY punch the keys on a computer
keyboard! They'll help you set the world straight!

When you can produce the same products at the same costs, come and
see ME!

Hard working people producing products do not deserve to be treated or
referred to as sub standard life forms.

Enough Said!

Sorry once again, sometimes I'm pressed too far and can't help but speak
my mind............

Rick

 

[bentprop]

The constant"China bashing" that goes on at other forums is exactly why I gave up reading them.American/English/German isn't always best.Whatever you can afford,have space for,and is available to you is best.Chinese tools and tooling have developed rapidly,and I'm quite happy with the stuff I bought.Their pricing allows many people to enjoy a hobby they would otherwise never think about.

 

[Circlip]

Not China bashing by any means Rick, but when members of the forum are complaining about the price of raw materials, theft of metals and then gleefully gloat about how cheaply they have bought tools/tooling from the various importers, How do they think they can afford them?? Sad fact is, although we don't want to admit it, (And I am talking ABOUT the UK) we "Civilised" Nations have become fat, lazy and overpaid, so it's best not to moan about the demise of our own manufacturing industries. We've all helped and are helping to achieve this.
Regards Ian

 

[Bogstandard]

I have just spent a rather large amount on tooling, and every bit of it is either Chinese, Indian or other far eastern producer. Sorry, I did have a couple of eastern European chucks.

I could have opted for home produced items up to 10 times as much. The quality might have been slightly better, and would last a lifetime, if you were aged twenty. In my situation, I don't need it to last that long, so it pays me to buy the cheaper goods, if it last a few years, great, if it breaks, buy a new one, it will cost me a lot less in the long run.

Everyone says that the quality isn't there, how accurate do you need it to be? Most technical drawings come with a tolerance of about 0.002". I can get that using a hand drill. I know for a fact that I will easily be able to achieve it with far eastern imports.

A few years ago, I would have said the same sort of thing Rick was on about, but having seen the progress they have made in such a short time, I have no qualms about going for all far eastern equipment.

I will tell you now, in ten years, the Chinese and other far eastern countries will be producing items that will be the envy of the world. They are willing to learn, unlike the western world, who think they can rest on their laurels and people will come to them to have things made, they are in for a big shock, and very soon.
Customers want a good, accurate and well made job. If they can get it done in the far east, most probably a lot cheaper and quicker, who do you think they are going to use.

John

 

[shred]

Most anybody over 40 can remember when 'Made in Japan' carried the same kind of stigma too.... I remember as a kid getting cheap stamped metal toy cars to play with at the 5-&-dime store, and if you squinted up inside the wheelwells, you could see the original printing of the Japanese soup can or whatever leftover/recycled metal it was punched out of-- they only re-painted the outside.

Anyway, I see this forum as much more about what we do with our tools which ones we own. Each to his or her own there I say.. but I got my tools because they can make things, not just to have them.

 

[zeusrekning]

I hear bitches about human rights and from China factories.
When I was 10 years old I remember the news casts of lives lost that day in the
steel mills of Pittsburgh. I can remember going there to see a Pirates baseball game
when you couldn't see the city as you approached it.
The rivers ran orange with the discharge of slag from the steel mills.
It was known as the "Smoky City".

Times change and they always will.

Rick we can only hope things may change. Just think where we would be now if we didn't have the system we have . What companies would get away with. I just don't think the situations are similar. I think it is more like the cotton industry in the south before slavery was abolished.

I believe China works on a scorched earth policy and to not expect much if any improvement in there human rights or there environmental pollution .

China's quality has and will continue to get better. I have no doubt they will surpass some of the US and Jap suppliers on quality.
I have to buy Made In China tools because it is all I can afford. But it does not mean I have to agree with there countries political/ human rights/ environmental policies.

It is history repeating itself yet again in my book. Look at the middle east. We needed oil. We found a group of camel riding Nomads in the middle east who had it and didn't want much for it. We ignored a lot about there way of life and humanitarian issues and helped the ally who had the best price at the time. Now where are we at?

What will happen when we have pumped all of our money to the Middle and far east? We will have built the wealthiest and most dangerous empire with out much of a manufacturing infrastructure. So now we are building the worlds largest manufacturing infrastructure with questionable morals next door.
What are we in for?

I'll continue to buy Miss China's tools and will continue to ***** about it. There are the hits and the misses. I have gotten used to the work involved in getting a new tool to function. I did buy the grinder that Harbor Freight had on sale for $130 with the two green wheels. I was impressed with the quality and weight of the tool. So it will go down as a definite hit. If I could afford it I would like to say I would not buy Chinese product but I have to. Maybe one day though

 

[Andy_B]

I think that before we knock developing countries we should review our own USA history from about 1885 until 1930. We had child labor, rough necks on assembly lines handing out physical abuse to ensure production quotas were met and imports of cheap labor to build railroads.

No one complained when the textile mills built in the New England states devastated the textile industry in the United Kingdom. Nor did the southern states complain when the textile industry moved south to take advantage of cheaper labor and less transportation cost on raw materials.

Mine safety in the coal mines was none existant during this time and many lives were lost so that the fuels necessary to fire the industrial revolution were available.

It took years of struggle to achieve advances in the war for human rights and fair pay. In some areas this has still not been achieved and the struggle continues. In other areas, fair pay has been achieved and the greed factor has been introduced into the picture. Is it really fair that someone is paid $65,000. a year for tightening a nut on the bumper of a car rolling down an assembly line or that new hires are not permitted because it would reduce overtime for the current crews?Compare this to teachers salaries. Those people who we intrust with the education of our children. No answers, only questions!

We are emerging into a world economy where "that's good enough" is not going to be good enough. Better will not be better than the best as some would have us believe. Words are not a marketable commodity unless you are an author. What can you contribute and produce will determine this country's destiny in the new world economy. IMHO this is applicable to all the countries of the world because the individuals collectively make the country.

This is just my view of our history at this point in time. I spent twenty two years of my life, willing to give my life, in defense of the Constitution of the USA. After all, that document gives each of us all the freedoms that we sometime take for granted.

 

[zeusrekning]

Should we support a country that uses the cruel and unusual methods that we have ruled in humane because they are developing? Is one mans life and well being any different because of the soil he stands on. If we shouldn't have our sons and daughters sit under an operating multi ton press why is it excusable because the people doing it aren't our immediate neighbors. If China's practices were not in our financial favor right now I'm sure we would be raising hell about what goes on over there.

The Turk that has his 14yo daughter killed by his 8yo son for sleeping with a boy is excusable to because we hanged girls as witches???

Our mistakes made through history have nothing to do with what was is going on in the present. If I had been around then I'd be bitching about the issues of the time

 

[Cedge]

I'm seeing the potential for this thread to become explosive. Carefully consider your words before hitting the post button lest you become the primer that sets off a blast.

Before we shoulder the responsibility for harshly judging the practices of China, one should consider the reaction if china told us how we have to do things in our own sovereign countries. There would be a total sense of outrage that they had the arrogance to assume they have control over our affairs.

The reality is China is a country where the cheapest available commodity is not raw materials, but an inexpensive and easily replaced labor force. The recent post of the stamping press horror correctly commented that there are probably 10 people waiting to take their place. Their labor force is, for the first time since 1949 , seeing the opportunity to make a level of income that can be disposed of for personal benefit. In that context, there are probably 100 people standing in line to sit under that huge machine.

The 1st world workers enjoy protections these people can't even imagine, let alone implement. The $65,000 Detroit bumper bolter will become a distant memory as the Chinese continue to advance and modernize. It's a wee bit hypocritical for those of us who buy their products to deny them their turn a the wheel. After all ... our own companies and politicians opted for short term profits over long term viability. ....we gave the opportunity to the Chinese on a silver platter. I only wish our own leaders had been as astute as the Chinese leaders in seeing it for what it was.

The Chinese will never need to go to war with us. They'll only need to say a simple NO to our requests for replacement parts to maintain our much vaunted high tech weaponry.

Steve

 

[zeusrekning]

Steve you are right. I wish I could say I have an idea that may work in regards to the Chinesees situation but I don't and that frankly scares me. All that I hope is that my children can have good lives and the older I get the more concerned I am with that.
Take it one year at a time and adjust right?
If I piss someone off here I may have to start doing something and I don't want that Steve I'd been one hell of a hippie in the 70's though. :big: :big: :big:
Tim

 

[sparky961]

Indeed, an explosive topic. Kudos to Rick for his original post, and to those who have posted their $0.02 (what's that in Yen?).

I think any half-intelligent person (and most people here are fully-intelligent) is able to see the current situation, as well as the looming future. My question to all of you is: what can we, as individual hard-working people, do to help ensure our countries' economical futures?

Personally, I believe that a big help with many of the problems today is to get away from the "bigger is better" attitude that's applied to stores and cities. There was a time when you could find everything you needed at your local small-town hardware or grocery store, and if there was something you _wanted_ that they didn't have, they'd special-order it in for you. The Sears catalogue (Canadian frame of reference here, probably US as well) still lives on today, although the range of available products is much narrower and your order most likely won't come by stage coach or steam train.

I'd like to see a return to small-town economics. Without the abundant supply of cheap (referring to price, not necessarily quality) Chinese goods for places for the big box stores (yeah, you know the ones that we ALL shop at), a door will be opened for more locally-produced goods.

Ordinarily, people refer to me as a pessimistic skeptic. Let it be known that I do have an optimistic side.

-Brian

 

[Cedge]

Brian
It's really gotten to be a Catch-22. Once you step into the big box stores, you've walked out of the local economy, right into the global one. I patronize small and local businesses as much as possible, but the dirty truth is that we'd all be walking around naked and bare footed if we truly boycotted Chinese made products.

It's not just machine tools. King cotton long ago abdicated his throne here in the southern US. Aside from a few small contract dieing and finishing houses, textiles died off quietly in the 1970's and 80's. Many of the very large companies I used to sell equipment too are now simply memories recalled over Brazilian or Colombian coffee.... at Starbucks instead of the local mom and pop cafe.

We've arrogantly regulated and legislated ourselves into a future that I fear will be nothing like the lives our parents enjoyed and hoped we'd prosper in. Like Tim, I often feel fear for the times ahead of my grandchildren. I don't see anyone taking their future freedom to succeed and prosper into any serious account.

Tim.... maybe.... but the metal body protrusions and purple hair was a bit much, even for the most hip of the hippies....LOL.

Steve

 

[rake60]

So are you ready for the auto market thing?

You had better be because the China imports are well on their way to a
country near you!

The LIFAN Company is very close to entering the US markets.
New cars priced $10,000 to $16,000
Will they sell? I'd have to believe they will.

They will be blamed for the demise of the big auto makers such as GM, who today
needs to come up with $15 billion in new cash assets to avoid bankruptcy.

It's an interesting game that I'm sure will produce ANY winners...

I certainly don't know where it will end.
We want to earn big and buy cheap. Those two things just don't work together.

The politically incorrect team at Jib Jab made their best attempt at explaining it.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI[/ame]

That makes TOO MUCH sense.
So who's to blame?

Rick

 

[nemt]

So the whole issue is about quality, isn't it?
Some years ago, when I still was a mice little boy, I learned that quality is "Fitness for use". Once you agree with this English frase, the discussion is finished, because fitness for use means something else for every one!. I own a Korean lathe, called Ferm and is suitable for my purposes. My mill on the other hand is Austrian. Schaublin 13. Got more or less by accident. That is toolmakers quality.
But still, you can talk about quality for years and never agree with each other.
Same her in Holland, where the same discussion takes place.

But still nice to read how some people think about matters.

Nemt from holland.

 

[sparky961]

For me, it's much less about quality and so much more about (un)common sense.

While fitness for use, as Nemt aptly points out, is the most important quality for tools, I find it funny that many have been fooled into believing that flashy colours and aerodynamic molded plastic housings are indications of "quality".

This is one area where I believe Chinese (and other similar) imports have excelled. Most of them are a perfect demonstration of simplicity in design and quality where it's useful (eg. not requiring the diameter of a hand-knob to be within 0.0001").

Looking back at some of the designs for old machinery within this continent, you can see this simplicity in form and function. Aren't things like this marketable anymore? Does everything have to have a built-in IPod docking station to sell?

-Brian

 

[CrewCab]

The politically incorrect team at Jib Jab made their best attempt at explaining it.

Blimey Rick, that Video clip is far too "frighteningly" close to the truth imho

CC

 

[Circlip]

Where do you get close from CC ? This IS whats happened/happening, enjoy your 4X while you can, cos the fuel "crisis" ain't going to change much, Gordon has no control, Except Tax, and he isn't going to relinquish that.
Quality? Not much with the Taiwan label on it anymore, but we went through exactly the same questions. We got used to using the imported sand, but the metal quality took a while to improve, original castings were SOOOOO soft,you only had to look at it for it to bend, and LOTS of us remember the first essential change? Fit a PROPPER electric motor.
Simplicity in design? Bit of a retro statement, the rest of us have proved how wrong we can get it by "Tarting" it up. How many "Third world" countries have kick started their car manufacturing industries by producing an up to date Model T ?
Not sure whether a quality or simplicity issue, take your pick, Gear train issue on mini mills? ? Plastic gear saga? ?
It's not all doom and gloom though, at this point in time in the good old GB, increasing numbers of pensioners are being allowed/forced back to work to teach the "Would you like fries with that sir? generation how to fit a plug, it not only passes on knowledge but also allows the oldies to have a tolerable standard of living providing you don't earn TOO much.
Hey, isn't this where we came in ? ( Round about the 1900's)
Regards Ian

 

[CrewCab]

Where do you get close from CC ? This IS whats happened/happening,

Too true Ian, I was just endeavouring to grasp at the last fragments of the "Rose" coloured tint on my specs ..... but it now seems to have faded completely ???

It's been coming for the last 12 months or more to be fair but imho in the the last two months the acceleration seems exponential, most likely fuelled by the news reports every time you turn on the Radio or TV ........... I mean, for Gawd's sake, the dam press seem to be doing their dammdest to talk us into recession :wall: instead of trying to help ....... then again, helping isn't in their nature is it

About 4 weeks ago we had roughly 3 - 4 months work on our order books, which is pretty fair, but recently most of the phone calls and emails have been "Sorry but due to ................. etc" ......... now I'm scratching about looking for work for next week

Oh well, could be I take a break and go visit the job centre ............ that'll be a first after 40 years working my backside off. ???

CC

 

[Bogstandard]

You can always come and work for me Dave, the pay isn't much, just continuous coffee and bacon butts.

But it will save you from picking up trolleys on supermarket car parks, only to be promoted two years later to the 'basket only' aisles in the checkouts. Methinks a six inch nail in the forehead is a better end to a working career.
I hate going to these places for just that reason, seeing previously highly skilled men and women turned into chimpanzees. The people in my area used to make the best cars and locomotive rolling stock in the world, now they are reduced to piling tin cans on shelves.

What a price to pay for 'progress'

John

 

[CrewCab]

You can always come and work for me Dave, the pay isn't much, just continuous coffee and bacon butts.

;D ............. how could I refuse such a generous offer ........... hopefully we'll scrape through but if not, be warned, I have a very large coffee cup 8)

CC