I need some guidance on building a steam powered pump for central heating.

[StretchNutsTheClown]

Please tear my ideas to shreds, I'm here to learn.

I'm building a wood burner, situated outside to heat a coil and pump hot water around a 2 story house with 12 radiators. The idea was always to use an electric 12v pump with backup battery but it's unusual in our region to have a full seven days per week of electricity. When we get our bad winters, -20c, an electric system would be as much use as a chocolate fireguard when the trees start coming down onto overhead supply lines.

I've had the idea to incorporate a boiler in the designs of the burner for a couple of months and I've already done a lot of research (Sometimes to the dismay of my wife)

what I'm most interested in at present is water reclamation. Separate to the radiator circuit I want steam generated by my boiler to power an engine which will turn a crank for the radiator pump and also a pully to turn a fan which will cool a radiator (from a tractor) which the steam engine exhausts will be sent through to condensate and hopefully be reintroduced into the system. So far my idea is to have the cold water tank at the same level as where I want the boiler filled to. They'll be separated by a clack valve so when there's nothing inside the boiler, the pressure of the water in the cold tank will push water inside the boiler, when the water inside the boiler gets hot enough to produce steam and the pressure is greater than the cold water tank, the clack valve will be closed and pressure will be increased until it can do work.

If this makes any sense to you, please could you point me in the direction of something similar so I can focus my research. It doesn't need to be finished until next winter so I have plenty of time to read it. Sorry if I have butchered a lot of terminology.

 

[GreenTwin]

I was on a camping trip one time, and happened across some campers who were heating water for a large group, to make hot chocolate.

There was a coil of 3/4" or perhaps 1/2" copper tubing in a charcoal starter, with the charcoal burning.
The copper coil was connected by two garden hoses to a large cooler full of water.

The water would be heated in the coil, flash/surge into the cooler, and then drain back to the coil via the lower fitting on the side of the cooler.

I was amazed that this device worked very well without a check valve but it did.

So one consideration is to just heat a coil, and use a check valve, and have a pump with no moving parts, and nothing to break or malfunction (other than perhaps the check valve).

Something to think about.

.

 

[GreenTwin]

I have seen a homemade generator/alternator (designed to also be used on a windmill) which was connected to a bottle steam engine that was about 5 feet tall.

I think power could be generated on a smaller scale if you needed a smaller amount of power.

And they use to sell propane-powered refrigerators (perhaps still make them), and so the refrigerator used a heat/expand, and then condense/cool cycle that actually worked very well.
Many RV campers still use dual propane/AC/DC refrigerators.

I would like to do the off-grid thing one day, and so have thought about it a lot.
I don't like solar, and so that is not an option for me.

.

 

[Richard Hed]

I would be interested in seeing a sketch of the system you intend to build. Do you have any indoor heating? firplace, stove?

 

[Jasonb]

Your boiler feed method is going to give problems. As once you have pressure in the boiler it will continue to heat until the water has been used up and you no longer have a supply of steam to your engine/pump. Trying to then allow the next lot of cold water into the boiler will either turn it into a flash steam boiler or the boiler will have already been damaged by being heated while empty.

Usual practice is to have a small boiler feed pump that is either driven by steam from the boiler direct or it is powered by the steam engine. This will keep the boiler topped up all the time the engine is running. The pump will produce more pressure than is within the boiler so will pump past a clack valve.

You will also have to work out how to get your steam engine/pump to start when the system calls for hot water.

Personally I'd run the steam engine separate from the heating and use it to generate electricity to charge a battery that can then be used to power the pump and all the heating side of things can be electronically controlled. Monitor battery condition and run the steam engine as and when they need charging.

 

[raveney]

Hello stretch,
when I was a young man I worked in the field of plumbing and heating in a cold climate on houses that predated electricity. For large houses (12 radiators) it was common to have a coal or wood boiler in a basement with low pressure steam used for the upper floors. The boilers and controls were replaced as electricity became available, but piping and radiators stayed. The piping was sloped and never trapped to allow steam to rise and condensate to drain. Even then you could hear "knocking" or steam hammer when they operated. Newer technology (1980) replaced these systems with forced hydronic systems which required fractional HP pump(s) and natural gas fired more efficient boilers.

Is it viable to use several zones and DC powered pumps that run on photovoltaic panels? That is commonly used where I live now (south USA) to circulate domestic hot water from storage tank to solar panels on the roof.

 

[kf2qd]

Your hot water heat does not need any pressure, and in fact if it does build pressure it will be very hazardous. I had a low pressure hot water heat system with an outside boiler when I lived in Indiana. My backup for power outages was to make provision to switch my furnace circulation and blower over to a generator.

 

[wce4]

Is this Site a Community dedicated to machinist built model engines or a Community for Automatic heating systems for the home, asking for a friend?

 

[HMEL]

Please tear my ideas to shreds, I'm here to learn.

I'm building a wood burner, situated outside to heat a coil and pump hot water around a 2 story house with 12 radiators. The idea was always to use an electric 12v pump with backup battery but it's unusual in our region to have a full seven days per week of electricity. When we get our bad winters, -20c, an electric system would be as much use as a chocolate fireguard when the trees start coming down onto overhead supply lines.

I've had the idea to incorporate a boiler in the designs of the burner for a couple of months and I've already done a lot of research (Sometimes to the dismay of my wife)

what I'm most interested in at present is water reclamation. Separate to the radiator circuit I want steam generated by my boiler to power an engine which will turn a crank for the radiator pump and also a pully to turn a fan which will cool a radiator (from a tractor) which the steam engine exhausts will be sent through to condensate and hopefully be reintroduced into the system. So far my idea is to have the cold water tank at the same level as where I want the boiler filled to. They'll be separated by a clack valve so when there's nothing inside the boiler, the pressure of the water in the cold tank will push water inside the boiler, when the water inside the boiler gets hot enough to produce steam and the pressure is greater than the cold water tank, the clack valve will be closed and pressure will be increased until it can do work.

If this makes any sense to you, please could you point me in the direction of something similar so I can focus my research. It doesn't need to be finished until next winter so I have plenty of time to read it. Sorry if I have butchered a lot of terminology.

If you want only a heating systems then there are designs that are free from pumps and the need for feedwater systems. They are simple closed hot water systems much like a water heater but the hot water boiler is installed in the basement. Movement is by thermal syphon. I lived in a house that had such a hot water system for several years while growing up. My mother lived in that house for over thirty years.. The radiators were old cast iron radiators and I doubt you will find any that massive not needing a fan. However the more efficient designs use circulating pumps. Since it is a closed loop system your water needs will be minimal. In times of no power a small generator would do the trick for any aux power you would need.

Do not design a boiler with a non return valve(clack valve, or check valve). If its a true boiler it will require a boiler feed pump and all the controls that go with it including water treatment. There is a least one unit in the area and I see them advertised a farm shows. What you are going to want is something simple and reliable.

Its difficult to go over all the things to consider when building a boiler but they are extensive and I suggest you do a lot of homework if you chose to go that way.

 

[ajoeiam]

Is this Site a Community dedicated to machinist built model engines or a Community for Automatic heating systems for the home, asking for a friend?

YES

 

[ajoeiam]

As the grid is eroding (we're already short of capacity in many areas and the new electric transportation is going to really aggravate this) I think it behooves those with the skills to develop solutions to live well.

Steam boilers seem to create huge amounts of fear in most and yet my neighbor regularly shoots off explosives and no one does anything - - - you know boys will be boys - - - that's the reasoning. Yet when a water tube boiler is mentioned the clamor that the sky is falling is quite deafing.

A system where waster derived energy is used for not only heating and refrigeration but also small scale power production should be possible.
I think regulations are going to be your biggest problem. The second largest problem will be general public attitude as the accepted wisdom is that this kind of thing can only be done by 'an expert'. Today's definition of 'an expert' seems to be of one who knows how to push reams of paper.

Here I will stop.

 

[StretchNutsTheClown]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm very very grateful to have people as smart as yourselves taking the time to share some of your experience and knowledge with me. You gave me a lot to think about and I've decided to go in a totally different direction. I'll post it in a new topic

 

[oldCB]

Funny stuff!

 

[StretchNutsTheClown]

Funny stuff!

What's funny?
Not a challenge, genuine question. Please tell me if you've seen anything that's glaringly stupid.

 

[Richard Hed]

As the grid is eroding (we're already short of capacity in many areas and the new electric transportation is going to really aggravate this) I think it behooves those with the skills to develop solutions to live well.

Steam boilers seem to create huge amounts of fear in most and yet my neighbor regularly shoots off explosives and no one does anything - - - you know boys will be boys - - - that's the reasoning. Yet when a water tube boiler is mentioned the clamor that the sky is falling is quite deafing.

A system where waster derived energy is used for not only heating and refrigeration but also small scale power production should be possible.
I think regulations are going to be your biggest problem. The second largest problem will be general public attitude as the accepted wisdom is that this kind of thing can only be done by 'an expert'. Today's definition of 'an expert' seems to be of one who knows how to push reams of paper.

Here I will stop.

Water tube boilers are FAR safer than firetubes. Anyone building a boiler for anything other than models should be using watertubers.

 

[minh-thanh]

Hi @StretchNutsTheClown
Your two threads do not match the "Boiler" purpose for the engine. So I've moved your two threads to the Break Room

 

[oldCB]

What's funny?
Not a challenge, genuine question. Please tell me if you've seen anything that's glaringly stupid.

I wuz responding to a comment by another confused bastard (SeaBee) in this thread.....carry on.

 

[hopperwhistle]

Look into the Steam Automobile Club Of America. The experimental steam guys in the club build crazy stuff like this all the time. Check out www.kimmelsteam.com for some inspiration.

 

[mole42]

I got into building a model engine because I’ve always been interested, I use a Drummond roundbed in my everyday work and I wanted to improve my engineering skills. A pal offered me the casting for a Monosoupape 9-cylinder rotary, and off we go. Of course, it didn’t end there…..

 

[Niels Abildgaard]

The model live steam locomotive fraternity are getting thermal efficiencies 1 to 2 % from less than 500W locomotives.
Coalfired boilers with up to 5bar internal pressure.
Numbers here

Small Steam efficiency

With dry wood available , a small suction gasgenerator with a combustion engine was used for most cars in Europe during WW2.
The gas contains 12-20% hydrogen that fool-proofs spark ignition.