endmill

[aRM]

Put me in the idiot class I clean both my Lathes and my mill with compressed air at a reduced psi. Hippie.
When a job becomes work it’s time to find another job.
Thanks Tom

Can't just help but put in my Two Cents Worth here as we are also in "the Idiot Class" as so crassly painted by the Maestro !!
We have joined this most knowledgable Forum not to create any Models or the like but just so's we can LEARN from some of the good Guys here who'd share their Brilliance, Expertise and Experience in Machining and Technical Works.
Regrettably, all this has taken a different meaning to some Folks here.
All we can do now is stand by the roadside and shake our heads ashamedly.
Sad indeed.
aRM

 

[IanN]

Put me in the idiot class I clean both my Lathes and my mill with compressed air at a reduced psi. As for the hacksaw yep I know how to use one but why would I use a hacksaw over a band saw or a portaband. I believe in letting my tools do the work for me. Work smarter not harder. Please excuse me for being a newbie at this I have only been doing it since 1986 as a profession. Plunge a hole with a endmill omg how taboo. A endmill is only made to cut on its side I guess I don’t even know what to say about that one ( Center Cut ) Now is it the best tool for making a hole maybe not the best tool but it’s in the top 5. If you want a hole and have the equipment and tools to do it then drill it close and finish it by boring to size. I guess again put me in the idiot class I have made thousands of holes with a center cut endmill.
Most people in here do this as a hobby so to use words like idiots or stupid is completely uncalled for this does nothing for helping a person. Then for us who do this as a profession to hear how stupid we are and have been doing it wrong. Well it’s not the first time I have done something wrong and it won’t be the last time. But I seem to make a damn fine living at it. Now you can call this butt hurt or whatever you want but if anyone knows me I really could care less what a person thinks of me never have cared and never will care. But when someone asks a question how about we try to answer the question to the best of our ability and leave the bullshit out ( except for joking with someone that’s always allowed lol ) Thanks for letting me vent I am done now remember these words of wisdom from the Hippie.
When a job becomes work it’s time to find another job.
Thanks Tom

Hi Tom,

I accept it was bad of me to use the term "idiot" - it is one of those golden rules: Never say someone was stupid to do XYZ, always say they have done a stupid thing. If you say they were stupid then (either consciously or sub-consciously) they go through a thought process along the lines "Oh, I'm stupid. You can't cure stupid, there is no point in me trying to improve, I will always stay stupid". But if they have"done a stupid thing", that was their choice. Next time they can make a different choice, they can learn and improve.

I am sorry if my comment offended - I have no excuse other than I'm a Grumpy Old Git who seems to spend a lot of time drumming the "airline lesson" in to apprentices.

I'm sure you are very familiar with numerous reasons why using air to clear swarf from a machine is a silly thing to do. The obvious safety issues need no discussion, but from my point of view there are two arguments that cannot be denied:

When you cut material you produce swarf. The swarf falls in the local area around the tool. If you try to make a nice neat pile of the debris by trying to blow all the particles in to a heap you will fail - the more you blow the wider the debris gets distributed and the bigger the mess you have to clean up - as a wise man once said "Work smarter, not harder". Of course the tiniest fragments are blown furthest and end up in unexpected places - occasionally one embeds itself in you finger and it hurts. You can avoid this situation by sweeping down benches and machine rather than blowing sharp shards of metal around the shop

The second point is that the swarf gets blown in to the machine parts - if you use compressed gas to clean a machine you force tiny particles of metal deep between the working surfaces of the machine. Swarf is forced in to "sealed" bearings in headstocks, between saddle and bed of a lathe, in to the dovetails of milling tables, in to gearboxes. These tiny particles (mixed with oil) form an extraordinarily effective abrasive compound and result in accelerated wear.

There is an excellent video clip showing this issue - I was discussing this issue with a gentleman called "MrPete" (ex TubalCain) on youtube and he agreed to let me use an edited version of one of his posts to show to my students (which I have done for the last four to five years). This short sequence from a longer video is distributed with MrPete's permission



I know that there are some people out there who will take the attitude "I don't service and maintain the lathe I work on, so I don't care if I trash the bearings and cause a load of extra maintenance - that is someone else's problem and I don't give a ****". On the other hand, maybe the lathe is a tool you saved up for, that you care for in your workshop and that you are proud to own - in which case you may rethink using compressed air to clean the machine

All the best,
Ian

 

[timo_gross]

you may rethink using compressed air to clean the machine

All the best,
Ian

Yes caught again using compressed air all the time: To clean various things. I really think everybody with a compressed air supply available does. It is just convenient:

• Getting swarf out of a hex bolt head - and into your eye.
• Cleaning coolant from the vise and spread it over your lunch. ( only eat lunch in the workshop after machining leaded free machining steel ( or was it lead free Machiningsteel? anyway )
• Drying the safety glases .... list goes on....

Some silly questions come to my mind.

Is it necessary to discuss who is offended how quickly? ( assuming no one wanted to offend anyone else in the first place )
If I do something wrong long enough does it become right? Does it become right if someone else gives me money for doing it wrong?
If I do it wrong on purpose, does it become right? If it can be done better does this render it wrong?
Did the anxient Greeks clean their CNC machines with compressed air or not? And does this teach us a lesson for today? And were did they get the electricity from? Why do some CNC Machines have compressed air nozzles?

I thought Ians message was. You do not need all the tools to do anything, some comon practice is not reflected enough and not every "old fashioned" tool like a brush, file or hacksaw should be discarded as not working anymore. They still have their place and sometimes they are underrated.
And for the compressed air: Do not use it without thinking! The swarf does not go away, it just goes somewhere else. A brush or vacuum make it go to a specific somewhere else ( it could be called "away" ).

All that said:

I still think this forum does a decent job to help others out. I try to keep it that way.
I bought a 2nd hand machine it was so nicely cleaned with compressed air that the ball srew of the x-axis was entirely damaged and needed replacement.

How does this happen?

Question: "Where can I buy a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill?"
Answer: "Do not use compressed air to remove Titanium swarf of unknown density from your machine"
Side comment: "Do not eat Titanium swarf!"

New to the forum I really hope that I can improve my own answering skills for the future. For this thread I consider myself stupid, almost a troll.

Greetings Timo

 

[Jasonb]

I wonder how well these students are equipped for when they have to go out to the real world and earn a living, they won't be presented with an old lathe or manual mill but instead a multi axis machining centre with an air line and gun plumbed in. Not to mention the possibility of air blast cooling or fog buster type systems.

In a similar vein I just looked through a Dormer catalogue and I would say 90% of their solid HSS and Carbide cutters (about 120 types) have the 3 arrow symbol showing that they are suitable for radial, diagonal and AXIAL feed. Insert tooling would also allow the ends to be used in many cases. So not sure where the sweeping statement not to use the end will help them.

While I'm not saying my or others hobby machines can take as heavy cuts as industrial machines the methods can be taken on board

 

[jack620]

Never say someone was stupid to do XYZ, always say they have done a stupid thing.

You shouldn’t be saying that either! What kind of training institution are you teaching at that allows you to speak to apprentices like that?

 

[IanN]

Yes caught again using compressed air all the time: To clean various things. I really think everybody with a compressed air supply available does. It is just convenient:

• Getting swarf out of a hex bolt head - and into your eye.
• Cleaning coolant from the vise and spread it over your lunch. ( only eat lunch in the workshop after machining leaded free machining steel ( or was it lead free Machiningsteel? anyway )
• Drying the safety glases .... list goes on....

Some silly questions come to my mind.

Is it necessary to discuss who is offended how quickly? ( assuming no one wanted to offend anyone else in the first place )
If I do something wrong long enough does it become right? Does it become right if someone else gives me money for doing it wrong?
If I do it wrong on purpose, does it become right? If it can be done better does this render it wrong?
Did the anxient Greeks clean their CNC machines with compressed air or not? And does this teach us a lesson for today? And were did they get the electricity from? Why do some CNC Machines have compressed air nozzles?

I thought Ians message was. You do not need all the tools to do anything, some comon practice is not reflected enough and not every "old fashioned" tool like a brush, file or hacksaw should be discarded as not working anymore. They still have their place and sometimes they are underrated.
And for the compressed air: Do not use it without thinking! The swarf does not go away, it just goes somewhere else. A brush or vacuum make it go to a specific somewhere else ( it could be called "away" ).

All that said:

I still think this forum does a decent job to help others out. I try to keep it that way.
I bought a 2nd hand machine it was so nicely cleaned with compressed air that the ball srew of the x-axis was entirely damaged and needed replacement.

How does this happen?

Question: "Where can I buy a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill?"
Answer: "Do not use compressed air to remove Titanium swarf of unknown density from your machine"
Side comment: "Do not eat Titanium swarf!"

New to the forum I really hope that I can improve my own answering skills for the future. For this thread I consider myself stupid, almost a troll.

Greetings Timo

Hi Timo,

Thanks for the humour - it makes the world a better place! (Even though we still have to stand two metres away from a joke and it has to wear a mask...)

As you know there are exceptions to every rule - You could have slipped in the
observation that some machines are designed to use compressed air as a “coolant” when cutting....

All the best,
Ian

 

[timo_gross]

Hi Timo,

Thanks for the humour - it makes the world a better place!
(Even though we still have to stand two metres away from a joke and it has to wear a mask...)

As you know there are exceptions to every rule - You could have slipped in the
observation that some machines are designed to use compressed air as a “coolant” when cutting....

All the best,
Ian

Off topic, yet again!

That is what I ment with air nozzle.

But which button is it? Mmh? :-/ .... First to answer gets one chinese ER20 collet as reward!


Joking aside the small Chinese milling machine that I bought 2nd hand really had all the swarf in the ball screw nut from compressed air cleaning. I had to take the complete machine apart, buy a new ball screw and nut, modify the ball screw nut, because the original one was much smaller. Had to make a new holder for the nut. Really quite a lot of work to get it fixed. Almost forgot had to change the software too.

Uui I really need to clean that machine. ( always ) Should I really do it I will use a vacuum cleaner and a paint brush. But... the air gun is still used a lot in a lot of situations.

Back to original post!

Is a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill something that is really of any use? Serious question! I have one Endmill that is slightly over 4 mm.
goal of this exercise is to be able to mill a metric keyway in one pass into a shaft without moving side to side.
I never used it so far, maybe it will be convenient to have at one day.

Cheers Timo

 

[terryd]

Off topic, yet again!

That is what I ment with air nozzle.
View attachment 124790
But which button is it? Mmh? :-/ .... First to answer gets one chinese ER20 collet as reward!


Joking aside the small Chinese milling machine that I bought 2nd hand really had all the swarf in the ball screw nut from compressed air cleaning. I had to take the complete machine apart, buy a new ball screw and nut, modify the ball screw nut, because the original one was much smaller. Had to make a new holder for the nut. Really quite a lot of work to get it fixed. Almost forgot had to change the software too.
View attachment 124792
Uui I really need to clean that machine. ( always ) Should I really do it I will use a vacuum cleaner and a paint brush. But... the air gun is still used a lot in a lot of situations.

Back to original post!

Is a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill something that is really of any use? Serious question! I have one Endmill that is slightly over 4 mm.
View attachment 124794 goal of this exercise is to be able to mill a metric keyway in one pass into a shaft without moving side to side.
I never used it so far, maybe it will be convenient to have at one day.

Cheers Timo

Hi Timo,

A 4 flute cutter will invariably wander to one side when cutting a slot or keyway. It's all down to the cutting geometry leading to unbalanced forces to one side with 4 flutes, that's why so called' 2 flute end mills' are more properly called 'slot drills' as the cutting action is balanced which reduces wander. It is also the reason that those using 4 flute or end milling cutters for slotting or cutting keyways first cut a narrower slot or keyway and then widen it by using the cutter in profile mode or as you put it "moving side to side".

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD

 

[terryd]

Just to be a little different, I used to grind a half just behind your D bit end= to take small amounts of swarf-- after pecking from the tailstock poppet.
No criticism, merely a bit 'doing it my way'

So thank you- and continued best wishes for the demonstrations

Norman

Hi Norman,

if you look carefully at the 'overhead' picture you can see that there is a small 'pocket' milled behind the cutter head for exactly the same purpose as yours. It's just not that obvious from the profile picture,

Stay safe and healthy.

TerryD

 

[terryd]

Put me in the idiot class I clean both my Lathes and my mill with compressed air at a reduced psi. As for the hacksaw yep I know how to use one but why would I use a hacksaw over a band saw or a portaband. I believe in letting my tools do the work for me. Work smarter not harder. Please excuse me for being a newbie at this I have only been doing it since 1986 as a profession. Plunge a hole with a endmill omg how taboo. A endmill is only made to cut on its side I guess I don’t even know what to say about that one ( Center Cut ) Now is it the best tool for making a hole maybe not the best tool but it’s in the top 5. If you want a hole and have the equipment and tools to do it then drill it close and finish it by boring to size. I guess again put me in the idiot class I have made thousands of holes with a center cut endmill.
Most people in here do this as a hobby so to use words like idiots or stupid is completely uncalled for this does nothing for helping a person. Then for us who do this as a profession to hear how stupid we are and have been doing it wrong. Well it’s not the first time I have done something wrong and it won’t be the last time. But I seem to make a damn fine living at it. Now you can call this butt hurt or whatever you want but if anyone knows me I really could care less what a person thinks of me never have cared and never will care. But when someone asks a question how about we try to answer the question to the best of our ability and leave the bullshit out ( except for joking with someone that’s always allowed lol ) Thanks for letting me vent I am done now remember these words of wisdom from the Hippie.
When a job becomes work it’s time to find another job.
Thanks Tom

Hi Tom,

I hope that you don't mind me commenting on your post. Using a traditional end milling cutter for drilling really is a no-no but of course a more modern centre cutting end mill is a different matter. Ttraditionally slot drills with their centre cutting geometry were used for drilling as well as cutting slots etc, but as cnc machines have developed then the centre cutting tool was developed to save a tool change. I think that folk point out the dangers of trying to drill with a traditional end milling cutter are doing so for the benefit of the tyro (newbie) who does not have your knowledge or experience, after all this is a 'home' model engineering forum not specifically aimed at professional engineers with all their experience, which of course is much valued.

As for using a hacksaw even though I'm well into my 70s and lack the strength I used to have I still prefer to use a hacksaw for cutting even up to 50mm diameter mild steel, it keeps my muscles well exercised, helping to slow down further deterioration of said muscles. I am also an amateur woodworker and generally still prefer to use hand tools rather than the power tools that most YouTubers insist are necessary even though I do own some very good machinery it is rarely used. It gives me great satisfaction to feel the materials I use giving way to my own efforts, planing a piece of timber with a well sharpened hand plane producing crisp, thin and even shavings producing a velvet smooth finish is a joy in itself for example. The 'journey' should be as enjoyable as the ending. Plus it saves on gym fees.

I don't use compressed air for my cleaning down, for many reasons discussed here but mostly for safety When working in industry we used to use it as a matter of course but in my own home workshop I keep the compressed air for the pneumatic tools I posess. One of my most vivid memories of my apprenticeship were the safety films we were shown in our induction week and that was nearly 60 years ago, one of which involved the dangers of compressed air, mostly to do with metal chips entering parts of the body, especially the eyes (including a close up film of an eye being operated on to remove some swarf driven in by the force of cleaning with compressed air even at low pressures - I can see it as if it was shown last week) but also it was impressed on us the dangers of air embolisms entering the blood stream through the skin which can cause and hse caused death if misused. Again, most of us with knowledge and experience of such matters take extra care, but a tyro reading about this may not be so aware. There should aways be caveats in such conversations or when offering advice.

I don't criticise anyone for what they do in the privacy of their own workshop or home, we all have different experiences , knowledge, equipment and skills, but I choose to work my way and I hope that any criticism of or by me is constructive and not the 'trolling' and destructive. I can only point out things that I have learned in a long career in both engineering and education. I don't think that discussions of safety are ever 'off-topic'.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD

 

[goldstar31]

Terry,

my thanks for your interest and valued comments

Best wishes

Norman

 

[clockworkcheval]

For milling slots I must confess I use any of my limited assortment of endmills that is about 0,5 - 1,0 mm undersized and has cutting edges at the end. I plunge right in with as only precaution centerdrilling first, just like with drills, as the center of the mill will of course not cut. This will leave a small dimple at one end of the slot, which doesn't normally bother me at all. I work to the final dimensions 'moving from side to side'.
In our clubworkshop we have compressed air for cleaning parts and tools - in a closed top wastebin - but the whole thing is positioned in a corner of the shop with a short length of hose far away of any machinetool.

 

[goldstar31]

Yes but MY simple little home workshop can act as a horizontal mill and come to think about it, my rotary pivoted vertical slide also is capable of dividing too.

You see I saw the limitations of present knowledge- which can be woefully sparse.

I have no wish to be rude or offensive- but with what is left of my failing eyesight, I do it the way that it was done in the dim and distant past.

So apologies

Norman-- at nearly 91

 

[clockworkcheval]

Nothing wrong with the dim and distant past. My grandmother told me that as a 12 year old girl in 1902 she occasionally had to threadle the lathe for my great-grandfather, and that she still can feel the difference between steel and brass.

 

[goldstar31]

Nothing wrong with the dim and distant past. My grandmother told me that as a 12 year old girl in 1902 she occasionally had to threadle the lathe for my great-grandfather, and that she still can feel the difference between steel and brass.

Apologies but if your gradmother was 12 in 1902, she was born in 1890. Maybe , I',having a 'snior moment'


I used to treadle my mother's( b.1897) Jone's sewing machine. I also recall a Dakota -DC3 flying int RAF Hendon at weekend ends-- with a registration PH-PBA but in 1949

 

[clockworkcheval]

Your reckoning is correct. And she lived to be 102 years old, independantly, in her own house.

 

[SmithDoor]

What type of metal are you milling ?

If problem i would make two passes.
Most end mill slots i take a under size pass then use correct size mill for last pass so no wobbly slot.

Dave

Hullo members, any information where I can purchase a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill? have searched the net no result. rrocky

 

[Jasonb]

What type of metal are you milling ?

If problem i would make two passes.

He says he is making a gear pump so that will imply two overlapping holes so intent would be to plunge with the milling cutter. The unusual size requirement is so there is very little clearance between gear and the wall of the pocket.

 

[aarggh]

You shouldn’t be saying that either! What kind of training institution are you teaching at that allows you to speak to apprentices like that?

There's a time and a place for everything, and in general criticism should always be constructive, but you can really only do so much hand holding for grown ups, as there will always be a segment of people who are incapable of the application of common sense with some things, and need "extreme re-reinforcement" to get it through their skulls. God know I've worked with people like that over the years!

And by extreme reinforcement, I mean stating the obvious for those who are incapable of understanding the obvious.

The other difference nowadays is you don't get the requisite smack over the back of the head from the teacher when you did a bone headed thing like we used to cop at school!

 

[IanN]

I wonder how well these students are equipped for when they have to go out to the real world and earn a living, they won't be presented with an old lathe or manual mill but instead a multi axis machining centre with an air line and gun plumbed in. Not to mention the possibility of air blast cooling or fog buster type systems.

In a similar vein I just looked through a Dormer catalogue and I would say 90% of their solid HSS and Carbide cutters (about 120 types) have the 3 arrow symbol showing that they are suitable for radial, diagonal and AXIAL feed. Insert tooling would also allow the ends to be used in many cases. So not sure where the sweeping statement not to use the end will help them.

While I'm not saying my or others hobby machines can take as heavy cuts as industrial machines the methods can be taken on board

Hi Jason,

I'm not sure which UK apprentice syllabus documents you looked through in order to come to your evaluation of UK apprentice education, but I would guess you only read the content of the first year.

In their first year (full time at college) they cover marking out and measuring (using surface plates, verniers (calipers, height gauges and protractors) and micrometers, (after mastering analogue instruments they progress to digital), slip gauges, sine bars, etc), hand fitting (the syllabus no longer includes "scraping"), work holding (including jigs and fixtures), toolmakers buttons, etc. Regarding machining, they start using mills and lathes using hand feed and dials, after successfully completing some test pieces, they are taught to use power feed, after further test pieces they are then are allowed to use DROs

After the first year, the course becomes one day a week at college and four days at their place of employment. Units on the course include: CNC, CAD (2D and 3D), CAM, Engineering Principles (mechanics - statics and dynamics), Electrical Principles and Electronics, Industrial Control (PLCs and microcontrollers), Pneumatics and Hydraulics, Material Science, Thermodynamics, Engineering maths (to mop up all the important bits of maths not covered in other units) and certification in welding.

There are other "optional" units - these are not optional for the apprentice, but are selected by the employer - an aerospace company would select different optional units for their apprentices than a company working in car manufacture for example.

Some students leave the course before the end of the five/six year full programme - a number leave at the end of the second year when they are certified welders to follow a career in welding, for example.

How does this compare with the education given to machinists in the USA? (A genuine question on my part - I truly have no idea how you educate your machinists)

All the best,
Ian