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terryd

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Henry Maudsley was a wonderful man, and his works at Lambeth in London was the training ground of many brilliant engineers who were his pupils, Amongst others who worked in his factory were Naysmith the scotsman who invented the pillar shaping machine (The normal design of shaper still in use today,) Others were Whitworth who invented the travelling head shaper, And the greatest of all Richard Roberts, who invented the planing machine,
It is of note that the production of true flat faces in those far off days was a stumbling block to engine and machine production, At this time the planing of large engine components of a heavy nature was a real bugbear, Until the invention of the Wall slotting Machine in the works of James Watt at Birmingham, It is sad that the true inventor of this machine , plus the horizontal wall planing machine was William Murdock, a Scotsmam who was one of Watts colleagues, These machines enabled the machining of large castings which were clamped to a stationary bed plate, or in the case of the wall slotting machine , the castings were mounted on a table which was fed past the travelling tool block, As there was not in those days enough horse power to move heavy castings back and forward on the table of a conventional pattern of planing machine.
Watts sons greatly overlooked any of his many inventions in the story of Bolton & Watt Some years later in the works Of Maudsley Sons & field, another genius W.W. Hulse, ( Who was married to Whitworths daughter) designed and built, a very large combined vertical & horizontal planing machine , combining the best of both of Murdocks two machines , Some of this pattern of planing & slotting machine in an advanced pattern were manufactured up until the early 1960 period, all be it with a modern powerful electrical drive, by Loudon Brothers machine tool builders in Johnstone near Glasgow.
The last big wall slotting machine was scrapped in Paisley Scotland, in 1974, Thus ending the direct link going back to the era of William Murdock, A great shame, this old machine had been constructed by the predecessors of Loudon Brothers a firm called J.McCarthur & Co. Should you folks be able to lay your hands on a superb book Machine Tools by Steed , published about 1965 It tells of the many wonderful things achieved in Maudsleys works. He also seems to have been a jovial happy sort of fellow.
Indeed he was an incredibly talented 'mechanician' using the Victorian term for the technician engineer. He started his career with an apprenticeship in the workshops of the famed London locksmith Joseph Bramah. Bramah was also an hydraulic engineer who invented the hydraulic press among other things, he was extremely demading in his standards and even today an outstanding example of something is often descried as a 'real Bramah'.

When Bramah refused Maudslay a promotion and pay rise Maudslay left and founded his own engineering company. He worked with and influenced many eminent engineers of the day as you so rightly point out. I went to an exhibition of his work in the British Science Musem in South Kensington. While there among other things I was able to inspect one of his screwcutting lathes, possibly the one that Maudslay himself worked at. It was eye opening to see such a beautiful machine. The flat surfaces were just that and finished to a burnished glass effect, much nicer than todays ground finishes and the fit of components was incredibly precise and would shame all but the very best that we have today. It should be pointed out though that Maudslay was not necessarily the inventor of the screwcutting lathe with leadscrew and change gears as is commonly accepted. Jesse Ramsden a celebrated instrument maker working in london developed such a machine earlier than Maudslay he published drawings of he macine in 1777 having developed it years earlier ( he also developed a micrometer screw for adjustmen before Maudslay):

"The lathe for the circular dividing engine's screw used a leadscrew to traverse a toolholder sliding on a triangular bar. The leadscrew had a pitch error of 1%, which Ramsden corrected on the workpiece by means of change wheels of 198 and 200 teeth (with an idler gear between). " - Graces Guide

At the exhibition there was also a model of the admiralty's block making production line from Portsmouth which he developed with Marc Brunel, (a famed engineer who was a refugee from the French revolution), a mass production line producing near identical interchangeable parts which preceded Henry Ford by over a century and Remington's manufactory. The story goes that Brunel approached Maudslay to engineer the machinery for the system and then approached the Admiralty. Apparently Brunel showed Maudslay his initial drawings without explaining the product upon which Maudslay stated that they were for a block making system - he was so very analytical. I perhaps should explain for the non seafaring members here that the sailing warships of the day used up to a thousand 'running blocks' for the rope rigging and these blocks frequently wore out and the navy had many ships. The block making plant and it's machinery reduced the manufacturing time for pulley blocks by a factor of 10 and was producing 130,000 blocks a year in full production.

This however is only a tiny part of Maudslays achievements and it is well worth reading his entry in Samuel Smiles great book "Industrial Biography".

As an aside, another little known but important character from the early 17th Century (C1620) is Dud Dudley, who, it is claimed pioneered the use of coal (possibly coke) in the production of iron instead of charcoal as the forests of the UK were being depleted to the extent that there was a threat of a possible shortage of suitable timber for shipbuilding. His autobiography "Metallum Martis" tells a story that would make a great film and is well worth reading and includes a description of his escape from a Parlamentarian prison in the English Civil war. Dudley himself was the illegitimate child of the Earl of Dudley born at Dudley at the centre of the English Midlands 'Black Country' in the late 16th century (C1580).

The recent history of engineeering technology is fascinating (and so is it's prehistory).

TerryD
 
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goldstar31

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Christine bought contra bass, contra alto but started to prepare for old age9 which she never really reached) but bought, but on a whim she bought a lightweight 'plastic' tenor. She also bough- and loved soprano saxes. She also bought closed hole clarinets and had an 'armoury' of the things. Paul Harvey had led the way in that direction and transcribed La Forza Destino for her on the bari sax. She was godmother to some of the kids from the Fairer sax Quartet. Was great pals with Sarah Markham and Richard Ingham who wrote( with Don Ashton) the Book of the Saxophone. My daughter who is also a dental consultant got the instruments to go with her peter Eaton Elite B flat and the 7/8ths Buthner Grand piano.
I know some of the 'surplus' instruments are unsold. My son and daughter and daughter in law got -eventually all the cars and the cherished family 'number plates'
Now I'm back to nursing an almost classic Mercedes SLK230 and a Lotus Elise SE.
I've given up driving now.
 

goldstar31

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I had an almost non extent education and what there was started in 1917 - and I was like the rest of the County of Durham a little Communist and whatever was there would lead me to being a Stakhanovite down the local coal mines. I lived within a couple of miles from what is still known as 'Little Moscow' and oddly the other way from that other illiterate namely George Stephenson who copied what the local blacksmith thought and made 'The Rocket'. His son Robert and I shared possibly the same chair in Newcastle upon Tyne's brilliant Literary and Philosophical Society's Library. Obviously with quite a few. years spacing. My lunch times would be spent in Newcastle's Exhibition Park Museum( later to become the Discovery museum) to e njoy looking at the first turbine ship- the Turbinia, assorted ancient steam locomotives and what I believe was/is a Holtzapffel Ornamental turning lathe. For a little diversion,, I would crank the handle of the model of. the Swing Bridge which was on the identical position where the bog oak piles of the much, much older Roman Bridge. Of course the extracted rotten timber piles made wonderful picture framing for my late and most lamented youth club leader who introduced me to such wondrous things such as a rather nice old Bronze age. skeleton and the opportunity to play an interesting game of clock golf arounf a couple of adult cists and a little on presumably for a child. Of course 'green stick bones' don't survive too well. Again He had a fascinating trepanned more recent skull with the tiny chip in it. It was many years until I was fortunate in marrying a lady with two heads. Now my daughter has inherited the same one that still lives in a Jacob's Cream Cracker box.
Somewhere in what is called the Spear side of the family is an entry for Ferryhill and nearby Shildon.
I've never found out really how much old Sam contributed Sans Pareill in the steam trials in which Rocket won. That was Timothy Hackwort's engine. Sam certainly ended his days as an engine man as his blacksmithing had sort of become too much for him.
I keep going on to relatives to find out what people actually did rather than having birt, siring a tribe of millions of kids and then die of understandably extreme exhaustion

Enough for now?

Norman
 

Dubi

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I think that Dubi is what w e Westerners call Dubai? I overnighted on my way to a Masonic Meeting in HongKong. I'm a very lowly Provincial Grand Lodge Officer with connections with things 'Oriental' as well as what used to bre called 'India'
Hence the Royal Air Force 31( the Goldstars) motto which translates from the Latin as :-

First in the Indian Skies

Best Wishes

Norman
Good morning Norman, Dubi is Hebrew for Bear. I worked in Israel for many years before coming to Indonesia. I have been here just over four years.

warm regards,
Dubi
 

goldstar31

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Good morning Norman, Dubi is Hebrew for Bear. I worked in Israel for many years before coming to Indonesia. I have been here just over four years.

warm regards,
Dubi
The mouth of the River Tyne was guarded by a Roman fort called Caer Ursa which is Latin for 'Home of the bear'
 

goldstar31

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The mouth of the River Tyne was guarded by a Roman fort called Caer Ursa which is Latin for 'Home of the bear'
So what about a bit of blood and snots, a bit of mysticism and SEX?????
Well, at the mouth of the River came the Vikings bent on rape, theft and pillage seeking out what was left of the village virgins that were left after the local lads had got tanked up on mthe Local Lindisfarne Mead on Holy Island supervised by the local dignitary, The Venerable Bed e who is allege d to. have brought Christianity to the populace and actually founded a monastery not far up river from the mouth of the Tyne.

At the other end( well the tidal end) lived none other than George Stephenson later to be copied and copied as designer and builder of the Rocket. Not at the time that the. Viking came but they had blue eyes wheras the locals were little, darkish skinnedand black hair. Funny my Mum was little, etc etc but bDad and I are'were tall and-- blue eyed:)Nothing that anyon can do about it but there.
When dear Old The Vereal Bede popped his cloggs and headed off to imortality- or immorality the local goodies carted his body past where the local Laidly or Lambton Worm or serpent lived until it was finally cut up into 3 halves by the local big shot who had come back from the Crusades. Returning back to the script, Bede was intered in the Durham Cathedral which was built by--- the Normans(we get around).

So after all these hundreds of years it is claimed that Bede's Body has never rotted. No one has checked but why spol the script.So somewhere( waving of flags, honking of car horns and the clattering of horses hooves and enter 'the wife's lot' Who had Alice in Wonderland and the the Queen's Mother.
So they built a castle which true to a good story- fell down. So I got nothing apart from a wonderful bride!
Whilst all that was going on- Robert Stephenson- George's Bonny Lad was building railway sand bridges for people to walk or ride across and above railways would run. One is still there, the Germans had a pot shot at it- but it is still there. What is next is a rather charming Swing Bridge which allows BIG ships to pass. They pulled up the remains of the Roman wooden piles where their bbridge stood. Made nice picture frames- but I digress. But a son ofa ca John Dobson used walk from home across it to a huge warehouse which cotray to belief held Tyneside's largest export. No oy coal but-----Human urine.
This day- it went off Bang and the bang was so lous it could be heard in British West T+Hartlepool whose only( ?) claim to fame is hanging a French monkey as a spy although he was only a cabin boy. Any how John Dobson's son could only be identified - by his house. keys.
My late wife? no- another day. Then came urbinia making rings around Queen's Vostoria;s Great British Fleet and my story of Nelly's Moss Lakes and electricity generating and then the first light bulbs and my connection with being violently sick over his granddaughter in law on one of those return of the Latter Day Vikings back to Norway.

Hstory is fun but never the way that they taught me

Norman
 

fcheslop

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As an aside the collection of urine was often known as the Butlers pension and clergy pee the most prised due to the rich diet,
The Hartlepool story is probably just bad publicity from the makems and takems or may have been a powder monkey???
Just another useless fact from my befuddled brain
 

GrahamJTaylor49

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What a wonderful example of devine twaddle and a possible start of the first chapter of a sequel to
that excellent book "1066 and all that".
 

goldstar31

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but Graham you have tto believe things because they are in the newspapers,
Well yesterday, the news came that the World came to a brief stop over the death of a man who could kick a piece of leather through a pair of wooden poles. Wow!
Yesterday, the news came of a poor lady having a miscarriage. Sadly, this happens to many ladies.
Yesterday was Black Friday- and even the words bring acrimony in another context because we have a good friday over a person who is claimed to have come alive again-- and all the painters hundreds of years later depicted the scene. There was, I have to remind people that there were not news papers and even if there were people could not read. Apparently the claim is that the ability to read is a new thing-- but being a sceptic I have reservations. But Black Friday came and one company disclosed to me that more than 3 million parcels were delivered by their staff- and I would add- scathingly 'never paid for'. Well not yet!
From the sam e source came the news that one of the guinea pigs had died---FACT!
Today, for us toothless gibbering old fools there is the welcome news that we are going to be given free Vitamin D tablets that we will have strengthened bones, be resistant to and stronger teeth. I have a bit of doubt about trying to dissolve a tablet in a glass tumbler with teeth in.
Sommwe are going to get the Xmas or Chistmas to tell the World yet again about a little Jewish boy who attracted three kings and three wise men because there was a star that regularly appeared but why at the Winter Solstice? That is the time when the locals go out and beat the bushes so that the cuckoos will wake up and start the beginning of Spring and a New Year- we hope.
Me, on a Black Friday hadn't an Black Label but the two of us old dodderers were happy to help save the planet by drinking the remaining 2/3rds of a bottle of equally- well almost Scotch so that the bottle could be re-cycled on Tuesday.
So far, it is only the sad death of the little guinea pigthat has a meaning-- to my two little grandchildren.
As the two old wearies were freemasons, the conversation was secret( ?drivel)

Now I'm getting nothing for all this but two of the richest people in the UK have written fiction about a character called Mr Bean and the other about a Wizard and a scarface called Harry Potter!

Be ieve it or not
 

GrahamJTaylor49

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It's a pity about the guinea pigs and their loss to your grandchildren, as for the rich, well the rich get richer and the poor get poorer as the old song goes. I see that Sir Philip Green has at last lost his empire, but I bet that he won't loose his yachts or his billions, and sod the workers. I doubt that he's a Freemason. I get on very well in my Lodge and have a lot of very good friends who's word is their bond.
Anyway, less of this banter and back to the Stuart Turner Major Beam Engine. Since the lock down I have managed to get more done than I have in the last 18 years. The Watts parallel motion was a bit of a sod as my lathe is a bit on the large size for very small items. But got there in the end by modifying the components.
 
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MRA

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As an aside the collection of urine was often known as the Butlers pension and clergy pee the most prised due to the rich diet,
It was used in the processing of wool. There's a cotton-spinning museum here (Helmshore - complete with full-length mules frames which are quite a thing) which developed from an earlier wool business; some of the fulling gear is still there. Apparently Methodist urine was worth more, as they didn't drink. Maybe that meant that the urine was more concentrated, as it wasn't washed out in a tide of 17 pints of Holt's best.
 

goldstar31

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As for urine, it also went into explosives hence a young son of the Architect John Dobson. Again what is sort challenging is dog's poo for tanning the leather for posh ladies gloves and bing Crosbie's and Bob Hope's 'Morocco Bound'

The intriguing uses of urine is or was tempering steel. According to legend the most desirable liquid was from ginger headed virgin boys. With a father a blacksmith, I have contributed to the tempering tank despite the fact that I was never ginger headed. It was a pleasanter alternative to the Roman way of things of plunging a red hot sword into one's least popular slave.
So it is autumn( a frosty one) with my chestnut btrees flinging conkers all over. Apparently, instead of making childhood games they were used to make cordite. Now I have pigeons- suggestions might be welcomed!
 

fcheslop

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Sorry my knowledge about the use of pee only goes back to Roman times and I certainly wouldna want to wear purple then.
Pigeons make good pies and rabbits have a humped back to keep the crust out of the gravy
So back to the Glasgow engine before the border is closed
Keep well and safe if not sober. Only jealous as sister bacteria is running a dry house this end
 

goldstar31

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Now now Frazer- none of this drifting back from the fleshpots of British West Hartlepool.
As for Rome, the purple was was from boiling shells from shellfish and to go and get the shells you would risk malaria from the Pontine Marshes. Malaria was rife in that part of the Mediterranean right up to- at least WW1. My uncle was in Salonica as an ambulance driver and he ended up with a war pension- a miserable one- of course. Oddly his service number. was 1918- in the RAMC- Rob All My Comrades.
Glasgow, ? I'd rather go North of the Highland Line.

Each to his own though

Best Wishes

N
 

fcheslop

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The urine was to fix the dye and also used to wash garments in , Although my memory is be a bit confused.
The Glasgow engine is considered a national treasure although I have had to alter it a wee bit due to the scale Im working at and to make the water jacket was becoming a lifes to short exercise and it may not have had one originally .Lord Kelvin may have had a finger in its addition
Flesh pots in BWH now now lets keep it clean
 

Dubi

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The mouth of the River Tyne was guarded by a Roman fort called Caer Ursa which is Latin for 'Home of the bear'
Hello Norman, I wish you a peaceful Sunday and hope all is well with you and the family. What was the reason for the naming, the name of the Legion or just straight forward military practice?
 

goldstar31

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Hello Norman, I wish you a peaceful Sunday and hope all is well with you and the family. What was the reason for the naming, the name of the Legion or just straight forward military practice?
Ouch! Unfortunately it is the wrong question- I have no idea of who garrisoned the roman Wall then although I have heard that it was the 'Arbs' and also the French. Again, there is mention of the 9th Legion. I simply too old, now without transport, down to a disability scooter and almost blind with macular degeneration.
What I can tell you is that the Roman fort of Caeer Ursa Caer Ursa is NOT on the Roman Wall. It is separated as the later folk son 'Water of Tyne' as 'I cannot get to my truelove if I would die as the eaters of Tyne run between THee and me'
South shields site if the fort are only yard between North Shields but a journey of some 80 kilometres between the two- with the Roman Wall on the North side- to the nearest bridging point of Newcastle upon Tyne- now and then. The nearest brisge to the sea was the replica of the Sydney Harbour bridge, the Swing Brisge( built over the Roman bog oak wooden piles and the High level Bridge which was designed and built by the son of the early railway pioneer of Rocket fame- George Stephenson. He, incidentally was born in a cottage at the extreme end of the tidal part of the Tyne. You CAN navigate around the bridge on thee Spring tides w hich ironically happen once a Lunar Month. I've done it!
So knowing the size of a Roman galley having done a first on what was probably St Paul's or Saul of Tarsis- isn't that big.
Complicated isn't it?

But then the Roman or Hadrian's Walis- of 72 miles n't the furthest North into what is now Northumberland and still in England but there is a Turf wall in Scotland much further North.
 

Steamchick

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A blacksmith with a sharp cold chisel to make the file?
The man who made files was named "Filer" - after his trade. I am descended from one. Must be where I get my penchant for making swarf.... Filer is a name traced to Cornwall. And yes, he was a blacksmith - made his own forged steel, cut the teeth with a cold chisel, hardened and tempered the files and other tools. (chisels, punches) and possibly was the "toolmaker" for the picks and drills for tin mining etc. that goes back millenia in Cornwall. It is even rumoured that (From what my Dad told me... I think - maybe remembered incorrectly, so please correct me with the facts!) Joseph of Arimathea traded with Cornwall to buy their tin, and in one of his trips to England he brought the boy Jesus to these shores..... But I don't think there is any authentication of these Cornish tales?
As Jesus' father was Joseph the Carpenter, I'm sure most carpenters also had (man-powered) wood turning lathes - and Jesus would have been taught his father's trade. Curious how we can find machining ("probably") in such curious instances - even if it was machining wood? Wood turned bowls and cups would have been well prized and valuable "back in those days"... so it is not inconceivable that the Holy Grail was a turned wood cup - I.E. a machined item - and possibly even made by Jesus himself? ( - and something he regarded as special? - or maybe just a regular "shop bought" cup...?). But being wood, (Cedar and Olive wood were common local woods) it therefore may have rotted in someplace unknown and no longer exist... but nice to think that Indiana Jones found it!
Back to the plot - I guess that some bright spark tried to machine copper, brass, gold, or silver on a wood lathe - and eventually decided that spinning thin copper and its alloys was the way to go to make domestic vessels.... But our beloved garage bench tools derive from that source as far as I was taught. Incidentally, the wood lathe probably derived from the potter's wheel.... or Quorn - the hand powered rotating grinding wheel (for Corn)....?
What a weird digression - must have drunk something... - Hope it it not too far removed from the idea of this thread!
K2
 

goldstar31

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I alway thought that it came from the French and earlier- from the Latin.
Digressing somewhat, there were TWO languages running together at the time of the Norman invasion of 1066( and all that). French was spoken by the nobleman whilst a form of earl English was spoken by the cottars, borders and the rest of the riffraff. Hence the expression by hook or by croook which allowed the peasants to pull down and burn mostly rotten wood- owned by the king via his barons.
As for the Joseph the Carpenter- I have my doubts. I think that the family of Jesus were a lot better qualified that first imagined. Obviously they were a nomadic lot and it is clear that St Paul previously Saul of Tarsis was not only a tent maker but he was also a lawyer. Again the Jury is out for Mary Magdalene, probably the wife of Jesus and if the French are to believed, there is the existence of a 'Black Madonna'
I've been in Cathar country- you know the 'Perfect ones' and that is what they believed. There seems to be a linkage , perhaps them with them with the what eventually became the Knights Templar attempted extermination on Friday the 13th. Of course there were TWO Popes exiting at the same time. Shades of 'Sur le Pont D'Avignon' I actually have been 'Sous le Pont' and that was where and probably still is where the Gypsies gathered. Of course there is African or Arab blood there but Willian the Conqueror or Wilhe lm le Batard had , it is said, a man of viking blood as a father and that his mother was raped.
So everyone has a chance of being right
 

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Hi again Goldstar. I have no idea of earlier linguistic roots of the word file/filer, just that a smith who made files became known as "Filer".
Incidentally, on a visit to the South coast of Ireland, we were informed - at Crook lighthouse - that the point and lighthouse the other side of the bay was Hook. So sailors use to say that "by Hook or by Crook" they would reach safe harbour. Meaning that whether the wind blew from East, South or West they could make a safe passage. A Northerly gale would be an off-shore wind so they could make safe anchorage in the lee of the cliffs, until the wind direction shifted. I have never heard of your alternative hook and Crook idea. But I previously thought it was a shepherds term for the Crook being a large hook for catching sheep. As the Crook is symbolic in the Christian church I had also heard of some reference to that... but too far back to remember.... (May be a good thing to forget some of the rubbish in the grey matter!).
What started the mill or lathe? A Blacksmith with a file?
It is very doubtful that a file applied to metal in a wood lathe was the development of the metal lathe, as wood turning using metal tools goes bake so far in history... as does graving, which was the first lathe work I was taught as a child (by my Grandfather - making 6BA screws from stock brass for clocks...).
For those who don't know. (Norman, please correct my "folklaw" if incorrect). Graving is the application of a sharp tool to scrape away a sliver of metal. -as in the verb/noun "engraving" (spell check can do that one - Hoorah!). Graving on a shaft or rotating lump of metal is akin to wood turning, so is a natural development - perhaps first used just for decoration on cylindrical objects like candlesticks? Or maybe spun objects came first? - and lathe graving developed when a careless spinner cut the metal with an edge on his forming tool, and developed graving for decoration? Later, when people thought of making other shapes graving developed with harder tools on better metal alloys to develop metal turning. Eventually, with clock making being the first "high tech" need for repeatable machining, the modern lathe naturally evolved.
On the origins of the drill, and milling machine, I think stone masons back in the time pre-Moses in Egyptian quarries were drilling deep holes in rock, with bronze drills? Or were they flint-tipped bronze shafts? (The first ceramic tipped tools!). The common Egyptian Rock being a sandstone and relatively soft. Possibly there is a Mason who can explain a correct history? All this pre-dates Greek and Roman machine engineering by millenia.
Thanks for this thread - the history is an interesting aspect to machining.
K2
 

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