South Bend 8K photos

[Bowman]

Thank you gentlemen for your support, advice and comments.
Since last time, I've looked at 4 used lathes but none of them were serviceable, so I've opted to change out the spindle and see if I can tune this one up. Not what I wanted to do, or feel I should be doing, but I have no option now but to follow through. Grizzly says they put one in the mail for me. (by the way, I can't believe how much grit and chips I've pulled and washed out of this machine so far!)

Thank you for the offer to help Mikbul. Since you have been down this road before me, I will PM you with a few specific questions in a day or two.

 

[Wizard69]

Hello Bowman,
From your ser# I believe that lathe was built in 2011 like mine and most of the other problem units. If I can help let me know.
Mikbul

BTW that lathe is machined in the same factory in Taiwan as the 10K with German and Japanese machinery so that spindle nose is a mystery.
Mikbul

Hmm I seem to remember reading that the lathe was produced in a separate facility.

 

[mikbul]

You also might want to check out my thread on Practical Machinist titled "New SB1001".
30 pages
59,715 views
591 replies
Started 10-22-2013
mikbul

 

[mikbul]

Hmm I seem to remember reading that the lathe was produced in a separate facility.

Pm won't allow discussion of home shop Chinese lathes
mikbul

 

[Bowman]

Ok, so I received a new spindle and it looks nicely ground compared to the gnawed one in previous post. I removed the old one and washed the bearings in kerosene to remove the grease, and found about 1/4 teaspoon of metal bits and grit in the wash. It never ends. So I ordered replacement bearings from the autoparts store as the bearings and races had been mildy scored (remember this is a new lathe that I haven't run yet, and is merely factory tested). It's new, I want to start with new bearings, not much to ask!

I've seen the nifty press by Mikbul, but I can't figure out how he pulled the races. There are no relief points in the casting to allow a punch and the shoulder of the race is close enough to the casting that it won't hold a punch on it's own. Ideas?

On a separate note, the quill was ground oversize so some Mt2 taper tools don't fit. They are sending a new quill.

Customer service has been good. The lathe on the other hand has cost me more in down time than it's worth at this point, but here I am hoping the next fix get it on line.

 

[mikbul]

Ok, so I received a new spindle and it looks nicely ground compared to the gnawed one in previous post. I removed the old one and washed the bearings in kerosene to remove the grease, and found about 1/4 teaspoon of metal bits and grit in the wash. It never ends. So I ordered replacement bearings from the autoparts store as the bearings and races had been mildy scored (remember this is a new lathe that I haven't run yet, and is merely factory tested). It's new, I want to start with new bearings, not much to ask!

I've seen the nifty press by Mikbul, but I can't figure out how he pulled the races. There are no relief points in the casting to allow a punch and the shoulder of the race is close enough to the casting that it won't hold a punch on it's own. Ideas?

On a separate note, the quill was ground oversize so some Mt2 taper tools don't fit. They are sending a new quill.

Customer service has been good. The lathe on the other hand has cost me more in down time than it's worth at this point, but here I am hoping the next fix get it on line.

I relieved the casting with a dremel just enough to catch the race with a drift. Then I worked my way around with an old chisel acting like a wedge between the race and casting until it was far enough apart to get a proper drift on it.
Mikbul

 

[mikbul]

I relieved the casting with a dremel just enough to catch the race with a drift. Then I worked my way around with an old chisel acting like a wedge between the race and casting until it was far enough apart to get a proper drift on it.
Mikbul

Note: Make sure to cut one of the old races in half to slide around the seat to find any burrs you made, file them out until the half race seats properly and you're all set.

BTW. As I said somewhere back in the threads anyone who wants to use the special tools I've made just cover shipping to and back.
1. Cut race
2. ground down allen wrench
3. home-made spanner
4. race puller (pulls the races INTO place)
5. steel tube to push the OUTER bearing onto it's seat using the spindle nut (tape over the inner bearing seat while using the tube to not scratch the seat.)
6. Ground down old race to seat the new race all the way home & not get stuck. (Works with the #4 puller)

I used the spindle nut with spacers(pulley, rpm pickup, etc.) to push the INNER bearing onto it's seat.
mikbul

 

[mikbul]

I thought I'd bring the photos of race removal/install back up.

 

[Bowman]

Thank you for bringing these pictures back up, very helpful. Your suggestion to grind relief points in the casting to punch the races out worked perfectly, thank you.

I wasn't expecting to replace the bearings until I saw how much grit was in them, so I had to jump on making the tools to replace the races and bearings, otherwise I would have taken you up on your generous offer to share your tools. (I still have to locate a steel tube to press the bearing on).

Hopefully it will all be back together and spinning this afternoon.

 

[Tanshanomi]

Wow, I really should've paid closer attention to setup of my 8K before I started using it, I just lubed it and spun it in. But I got a 3/13 build out of Springfield, so perhaps mine was in better shape? In any case, it doesn't vibrate or make any undue noise, and seems happy to do what I ask of it.

 

[deek]

Some of us got the 2011 build, which is likely just NOS.

I complained to Grizzly about my build, but they were unresponsive. They did not admit any issues with the 2011 build (purchased in 2014). If I had to guess, I'd say they cleaned up the issues on the 2011 build with the later builds, but then decided to simply sell off their old stock. Pure and Idle speculation, but that seems to be the simplest explanation.

My lathe is now working great. I went through all the bearing issues along with a handful of other issues. I will say that Grizzly was quick to send out new parts, but you're on your own for the actual diagnosing and repair.

I won't buy from Grizzly again, but that's just me. I'm sure they have some good machines out there.

 

[Swifty]

It's a shame that there have been so many problems with this lathe, it looks a great machine, if the spindle problems were sorted out they may have had a real winner there.

Paul.

 

[Wizard69]

It's a shame that there have been so many problems with this lathe, it looks a great machine, if the spindle problems were sorted out they may have had a real winner there.

Paul.

I suspect that Grizzly got screwed royally by its supplier here. As noted the machine "looks" like a winner but was let down by the shoddy workmanship we seem to be seeing in these posts.

 

[tlfamm]

I suspect that Grizzly got screwed royally by its supplier here. As noted the machine "looks" like a winner but was let down by the shoddy workmanship we seem to be seeing in these posts.

Grizzly is not some casual, victimized bystander in this affair. If indeed their chosen supplier could not/would not meet reasonable standards of quality, the solution is certainly not for Grizzly to throw up their hands in despair and abandon the product, meanwhile pushing a defective production run out to the customer base. After 30 years in the business, one presumes that Grizzly indeed knows how to negotiate a contract, knows how to stipulate quality metrics, knows how to stipulate penalty clauses for failure to meet agreed upon requirements, and knows how to chose a reputable supplier.


Supplier problems are solvable problems, provided that sufficient will exists on the part of Grizzly, and that the product is economically viable to begin with.

 

[mikbul]

Way before the issue with the grease in the spindle bearings the project was doomed because of the high price and more emphasis on the 10K. It just wasn't selling at the price point they needed to keep it in production. If it did sell like P. Grizzly hoped they would have jumped on the bearing issue. When they decided to stop production they dropped the price about $1200.00. To me cleaning out a couple bearings for a $1200.00 discount was a no brainer. To get a lathe with camlock, flame hardened v-ways, variable speed, 1-1/8" spindle bore etc. I don't think you will ever see another lathe in this size of this quality for this price. My two threads, HMEM and Practical Machinist were a lot of work but got the needed info out to those who actually OWN an 8K and that was worth the time.

 

[tlfamm]

"It just wasn't selling at the price point they needed to keep it in production."

That's it in a nutshell. If the lathe were selling, Grizzly would not have ended production, and would not have allowed any supplier problems to interfere with production.

 

[Wizard69]

Grizzly is not some casual, victimized bystander in this affair.

Bystander no but somebody dropped the ball when it came to quality on these machines.

If indeed their chosen supplier could not/would not meet reasonable standards of quality, the solution is certainly not for Grizzly to throw up their hands in despair and abandon the product, meanwhile pushing a defective production run out to the customer base.

Yet from all appearances this is exactly what has happened.

After 30 years in the business, one presumes that Grizzly indeed knows how to negotiate a contract, knows how to stipulate quality metrics, knows how to stipulate penalty clauses for failure to meet agreed upon requirements, and knows how to chose a reputable supplier.

I'm not even sure this is true. I've had very mixed results with stuff I've personally have purchased from Grizzly.

Further there quality standards seem to vary significantly with the product. One visit to the store in PA, a few years ago, to purchase a drill press pretty much convinced me that the take whatever the manufacture sends them. At the time I didn't really want to buy a large drill press but ultimately wasn't willing to a comet the quality in display for the smaller drill presses in their lineup. We are talking here about sloppy quils, and sloppy spindles in the machines right on the show room floor. That really shocked me as you see better quality in home center drill presses.

Supplier problems are solvable problems, provided that sufficient will exists on the part of Grizzly, and that the product is economically viable to begin with.

Maybe the sales where bad, I really don't know. The fact that models from several years ago are shipping out of Grizzly does imply poor sales. The economy being bad is likely partly to blame. That combined with the expectations many had for really cheap small machines is likely a factor also in the poor sales. The problem is the lathe was actually pretty impressive spec wise and you would have had a very hard time rebuilding a 9x20, for example, into a lathe with equivalent capability.

As for supplier problems, as wide spread as the issues are I'm pretty sure the supplier had no intention of building to the quality level Grizzly expected. One or two bad lathes slipping through would have been notable but here we have many cases demonstrating a lack of quality control.

 

[tlfamm]

tlfamm:
>>After 30 years in the business, one presumes that Grizzly indeed knows how to negotiate a contract, knows how to stipulate quality metrics, knows how to stipulate penalty clauses for failure to meet agreed upon requirements, and knows how to chose a reputable supplier.

Wizard69
>>>>I'm not even sure this is true. I've had very mixed results with stuff I've personally have purchased from Grizzly.


My experience as well (see my comments above on the Grizzly RF45 clone)- but recall another of my comments way back about Grizzly generally functioning as a big-box retailer (and accepting & selling whatever the factory produces), but, more rarely, acting as a machine-tool designer- which they clearly were with the mini South Bend lathe. I'm inclined to believe that Shiraz had perfectly good intentions with this machine (he is certainly enthusiastic about the South Bend brand) , and made his expectations clear (even contractually) to the supplier. Shiraz knows machine tools, and is certainly a successful businessman - he has all the skills and experience necessary to get what he wants. I cannot believe he did not want the best for the product.

Once it became clear that the machine wasn't selling (did Grizzly even recover the development costs?), I suspect that everyone went into cut-our-losses mode and concerns about quality were discarded.
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As a small corporation, Grizzly can't really afford to nurture a slow-selling product indefinitely - they have no choice but to demand a specific return on investment in a finite amount of time. That's mandatory for any enterprise which hopes to survive - but what if Grizzly had deeper pockets and could have held out longer (say 8 years instead of 4 years), all the while insisting on the supplier meeting the high expectations that a South Bend labeled product would produce (even an Asian sourced model).

An 8-year product ramp-up cycle (combined with a lower price) might, or might not, have made a difference in terms of market penetration. Clearly Shiraz didn't think so and didn't want to prolong the financial exposure for that length of time - and we do have to respect his business savy, while regretting that the product didn't succeed.

 

[deek]

hey peoples,

I just stripped one of the t-bolts that holds the compound rest in place. The t-bolt has a thin nut and it doesn't take much to over tighten.

I've order 8m 1.25 grade 10 t-bolts from McMaster to replace along with thin nuts (grade 4) and regular nuts (grade 10). I don't know what grade those t-bolts are in the machine, but I'm certain they are not grade 10.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Incidentally, I've got another 25 hours on the Aloris MP tool holder and love it. Virtually no chatter and it stays put wherever I set it.

deek

 

[mikbul]

I've been reading the posts on Grizzly quality and right after I bought the 8K I ordered a drill press and there is no comparison in quality to the 8K. Drilling holes in steel plate the chuck kept falling out and took a lot of messing around to get it to stay. I think I'm going to put my South Bend chuck in it, I can still pop it out if I need it in the lathe. The problems with the 8K were stupidity and poor Q/C on a very good machine, but it still is much better than the drill press.
Anyway I wanted to give you 8K owners or followers first chance on some machine tools I'm selling. I will post them in the proper place after 24hrs.
Contact me personally with interest, I won't respond on this thread.

1. Miller test bar
2. Brown & Sharp # 1 (599-1-32) NOS 0-1" micrometer
3. " " (599-3-33) NOS 2-3" " "
4. Mit. 102-226 0-1" " "
5. Mit. 102-124 1-2" " "
6. South Bend Bull Nose Center MT #2

Mikbul