Indexable bits info needed

[jgarrett]

I have one 3/8" indexable bit and seem to like it pretty well. I would like to buy a set. There seems to be several out there with ENCO having one on sale now. Anybody use indexable bits and have any reccomendations or opinions please??
Thanks,
Julian G.

 

[rake60]

I have this set that I bought from an eBay auction for about the same prices as the Enco brand set.

It's held up pretty well with the exception of the 60 degree tool.
The insert seat has worn on that one tool making it practically unusable. That was MY fault! The screw was not tight enough and I was gouging the undercut in the face of a flywheel. The carbide insert was working back and forth and deformed the seat.

The USA made tools sets are much better quality.
As with anything related to the hobby, work within your hobby budget. The India made tools will work very well if you are careful with them. Be SURE the insert screw it tight, and don't try to take big cuts with them. If the USA made tools set is within your budget it may well be the last set you ever have to buy.

Rick

 

[gilessim]

Rick, that looks pretty much like the set that I bought from www.axminster.co.uk/ the UK, they cut fairly well but the inserts seemed to chip fairly quickly, they should have new ones though...Giles

 

[rake60]

The only inserts I can find to fit my tools are TCMT21.51 The .015" nose radius doe make them fragile. I have successfully ground that radius to be closer to a .030" and they do hold up much better.
(Carbide dust from grinding is not lung friendly!!!)

I buy Kennametal inserts at $4.25 each.
You can find generic inserts in that size for as little as $2.00 each. I have tried a few of those as well. In fact I tried a ten pack of them in about a three hour time frame.....

To keep it civil, I was NOT impressed with their performance! :

Rick

 

[macona]

Try the tools from http://www.plastools.com/ I bought a set when I had my mini lathe and they work nice. They use a TNMG22x insert which is really cheap and can be found all over ebay. What really great about these is you can flip over the insert and use the other side. Then swap the insert from the righ hand holder to the left holder and thats 12 different edges you can use on each insert versus the 6 on a Positive insert.

Just watch out for grades when buying from ebay.  I use this chart from newcomer to get an idea what grade I am buying:

http://www.newcomerproducts.com/pdfs/gradecrossref.pdf

One other note is chipbreakers. Finishing chipbreakers is what you probably want for a small lathe. They have the weakest edge but cut the easiest HP wise. Avoid inserts marked "honed" they are for turning hard metals and have the corner honed off.

 

[jgarrett]

I think I will go ahead and give the ENCO set a try. Rick, the single one I have looks like your set. I just have to make sure I get the right inserts.
Macona, that chart helps but adds more confusion as far as selection. I will cut brass, alum. & steel. Grade C2,C6 or both??? The box of inserts I have has no senseable markings so can't tell just what they are. Is there a chart somewhere that gives insert dimensions?
Thanks,
Julian G.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Julian:
I have a set of 1/4 Enco insert tools the inserts were a sloppy fit real quick I am not sure if it was that way from the factory or they wore fast. If I buy another set it would be at least Made in USA from Enco or a set from.Arthur R. Warner Co. 701 Depot Street, P.O. Box 1, Latrobe, PA 15650 | Phone: (724) 539-9229 http://www.arwarnerco.com/warner_products_kits_turning.html
I have an insert type boring bar from them and love it. the HHS inserts have advantages to the hobby guys.
you can see a chart here http://www.arwarnerco.com/warner_products_inserts_chart.html
Normal disclaimers
If you want the long version here is a link to the the 13 page ANSI spec for inserts and holders
www.ccpa.org/pdf/B212_18.pdf
Ultimately you need to decide how to allocate the shop budget. In my experience the imports do not hold up as well as the USA made ones.
At the present time I just grind regular bits as I have not decided to part with the money to buy a good set of indexable holders and I am not running CNC.
Tin

 

[macona]

Julian, C2 is used for non-ferrous and cast iron. Also wood.

C6 is used for Steel and alloys.

But in general home shop use you can use either or.

Things get more interesting with micrograin carbides and special coating. Every company uses their own designations and they can change yearly.

 

[jgarrett]

When I went to order I discovered that ENCO had their USA brand set on sale for $54.. Can't go wrong there..
Julian G.

 

[Julian]

Hi,

There is a glanze 3/8ths set for about £20 at Chronos same as Axminster and the others. This year for my big Denford lathe I decided to make my own because my 3/8 set being damaged by the big boy. Keeping that set for the Seig. Bought some inserts at the Warwick ME show in October. Some 20mm round bar flatted on two sides in the mill to fit in the qctp. Machine one end to take the tips chosen with a slight angle to give clearance if the inserts have none. Drill and tap centre mark of insert to take fixing screw and use. Build as many as needed and whatever angles and configurations you need or want. I build left handed, right handed and a facing cutter. Some smaller diamond shaped inserts made a boring bar in the same way. I now have the tooling I need and can make any others needed. I have just turned some steel bar. Took off 1mm in one pass and got an exceptional finish at 400rpm. Next tool is a flycutter for the mill using morse two blank and two inserts.

I have found the cheapest and easiest way to get tooled up is build your own. It is very easy for basic stuff which can them be used to build anything else as and when needed.

Piccys to follow if you want


Julian

 

[jgarrett]

Thanks for all of the inputs. The set from ENCO should be in tomorrow, and I will post my critique of them. Anxious to see how the US made compares to the import.
Thanks,
Julian G.

 

[Canyonman]

Macona,

Quote: "Try the tools from http://www.plastools.com/ I bought a set when I had my mini lathe and they work nice. They use a TNMG22x insert which is really cheap and can be found all over ebay. What really great about these is you can flip over the insert and use the other side. Then swap the insert from the righ hand holder to the left holder and thats 12 different edges you can use on each insert versus the 6 on a Positive insert.

Just watch out for grades when buying from ebay. I use this chart from newcomer to get an idea what grade I am buying:

Many Thanks for that plastools link, All the TNMG222 I could ever want! you said cheap and all over EBay, could I get the search parameters you use to find them. I sure have No Luck finding them. I hit your plastools link and almost wet my pants!!!!!!

I'm embarrased to say the newcomer chart makes no sense to me. If I blow it up where I can read it, I can't get the headers. If I print it it's too small. Maybe I could grasp it if I could get a readable copy.

But..... MANY THANKS for the Link!!! Ken

 

[gilessim]

Does anyone recognize these?, they were in a box of other stuff that I bought for 10 euros in a second hand store near me, the square ones are 19mm square, and are kennametal,there are only 5 of those but the other ones are Italian (there seem to be 2 slightly different types) and there are 7 boxes of 10!, I don't know what they are for but they look to be extremely good quality and look expensive!. If anyone knows what they are and has a use for them, please let me know...Giles

 

[Bogstandard]

Hi Giles,

I have some very similar to the one in the middle at the front, mine are three sided and are for cutting circlip grooves.

John

 

[jgarrett]

Indexable bit set from ENCO arrived today. I did buy the USA brand but did not get a nice case like the one Rick posted. I compared them to the single (Mfg. origin unknown)and could see no difference other than the holdown screw size.
NOW the problem is the spare inserts I purchased along with the set do not fit. I bought TT 221 and TT 222 as recommended by ENCO. As you can see from the picture the insert is a few thous. too large. ENCO customer support said that they would have a tech. go to the bins and check to see if there was a problem. Have not heard back from them as of yet. I think just a small swipe with a file will cure the problem. The spare inserts do fit the original single holder I had fine.
The sides measure .383" on the old bit and .403" on the new ones.
I don't really want to send the set back but I don't want to ruin it by filing the opening.
Julian G.

 

[rake60]

I wouldn't alter the seats Julian.

I've worked for a few floor foreman who insisted that a tool could be repaired or modified.
I've never had so much as ONE positive result for those attempts.

A TT insert is a Import (replacement) for the TCMM Domestic insert that those tools are designed
to hold. Little Machine Shop sells the TCMM 221 inserts.

If it were me, I'd buy one of those and see if it fits the holder. You have a good tool set there!
The inserts to fit the tools may cost a little more, but compared to the import inserts the difference is incredible. There are many nicks in the walls of my basement shop caused by trying to save a dollar on an insert purchase. To be honest, I'm getting to old to be throwing stuff at the basement walls!!!

Rick

 

[jgarrett]

Good advice Rick, I will see if I can just return the inserts.
I really did not think modifying the holder was a good idea.
Julian G.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Julian:
I have a set of 1/4 Enco insert tools the inserts were a sloppy fit real quick I am not sure if it was that way from the factory or they wore fast. If I buy another set it would be at least Made in USA from Enco or a set from.Arthur R. Warner Co. 701 Depot Street, P.O. Box 1, Latrobe, PA 15650 | Phone: (724) 539-9229 http://www.arwarnerco.com/warner_products_kits_turning.html
I have an insert type boring bar from them and love it. the HHS inserts have advantages to the hobby guys.
you can see a chart here http://www.arwarnerco.com/warner_products_inserts_chart.html
Normal disclaimers
If you want the long version here is a link to the the 13 page ANSI spec for inserts and holders
www.ccpa.org/pdf/B212_18.pdf
Ultimately you need to decide how to allocate the shop budget. In my experience the imports do not hold up as well as the USA made ones.
At the present time I just grind regular bits as I have not decided to part with the money to buy a good set of indexable holders and I am not running CNC.
Tin

Well decided to bite the proverbial bullet and get a 3/8 set of the Warner indexables at the show. They had them at a special sale price. So saved a few bucks. They also sell threading holders and iinserts. These are made by a small family owned run operation . He uses 4130 heat treated for the holders and t-15 HSS for the bits/inserts. I dealt directly with the owner . He is very knowledgeable and stressed that it is OK to call with any questions. These take standard sized inserts so one can use carbide should the need arise.
Tin

 

[Jadecy]

Just a note that may be useful to someone. I had a cheap set of indexable tools for my 9x20 and they worked pretty well. I bought them from "Little Machine Shop". They are still being used by my father. I gave them to him when I bought a set from here:

http://www.plastools.com

My new tool holders are more expensive but they use the cheaper inserts and I get much better surface finish.

 

[BobWarfield]

I have two sets of indexable turning tools. They are surprisingly similar. Both use CCMT inserts (diamond shaped), which I really like. One is a 3/8" made by Glanze. I got it from Grizzly, but I don't think they carry them any more. Glanze are made in India, and they're about. Someone here mentioned having a Glanze set.

My second set was a Micro100. I got them in 1/2", which (barely) fit my AXA holders. They're much more rigid and use the same inserts. Wholesale Tool offers them:

http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/39819/nm/7_Pc_Indexable_Insert_Holder_Set

I got them on sale, but I can't remember where. I know they weren't $200, but they were not cheap either.

I have the Plastool model as well. It's handy sometimes, but I don't think the insert style performs as well as the CCMT's.
Here are the Glanze tools along with my Aloris cutoff tool:

BTW, there is a trick to finding the "right" CCMT's for small lathes too. This is very important! I've tried lots of inserts, and this is the ticket. I got the tip from a pro who had come across these inserts somewhere.

Here is the standard CCMT:

Now here are the "good" inserts:

See how they look like a "little crown"? It's that shape that is the key. They have a lot of positive rake, which is good for small lathes. For a time they were called "CCGT" on eBay, but that's a misnomer. These days I insist on seeing a picture of the insert before I'll buy. The little crowns cut way better and leave a finer finish to boot. It is amazing how much the different insert styles matter on these things.

One last point. The boring bars I've gotten in these turning sets have always been extremely poor. Boring is a demanding job. Look for solid carbide bars from good names. I like Circle bars when I find them cheap enough on eBay.

Cheers,

BW