zeeprogrammer
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welcome back Mike!!! I hope all is well.
Looking forward to seeing more on this thread!
Looking forward to seeing more on this thread!
Edgar T Westbury's 15cc Petrol 4 cylinder engine - it could be a long post!
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Metal Mickey
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Many thanks for the welcome. More to follow on Wednesday I hope......
Metal Mickey
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Thanks CC. Laid up at the moment but hopefully will resume end of the week. Will be trying to finish the cylinder block castings ready for making the cylinders and valve guides from next week onwards. MM
Metal Mickey
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I have started to in line bore one of the Seal main cylinder block castings and some 6 months later than expected, used my tool setting fixture for the boring bar (the making of which is on the forum and the plans for the fixture were/are on the downloads page) which I am please to say works well. I was a little apprehensive that the movement and positioning of the fixture each time could cause an error but each time I mounted it for the next tool advancement, it read the previous setting exactly.
I have long hankered after a set of slip gauges and have scanned eBay for many a month and was fortunate enough to get an imperials set there recently. So I brought these into use when sorting out the packing required between the cross slide and the casting base. You may well laugh but I had to get my digital calipers just to check whether there marked dimension was width, length etc. Putting that to one side I was able to make two stacks up for the casting to sit on whilst I compared the tapered centre in the headstock with the scribed line on the front of the casting.
Armed with this information I then sort out material for the casting to bolt to, giving me the least amount of work. I nearly came a cropper though when I was using a piece of aluminium I thought was the same width only to find on checking it was quite a bit out so it was fly cut in the mill and an extra piece of material sought (ended up as some sheet copper I have) before it was bolted down and the position checked.
After that it was just a case of making sure it was in line (used a dti to make sure) and then mounted the boring bar between a live centre in the tailstock and a half centre (only other MT2 I had) in the headstock. The bar is driven by a dog and home made brass pillar bolted to the faceplate.
After checking that I had sufficient movement on the cross slide I had to reverse the bar to allow the full travel. My next error was forgetting to make sure the tool was in the right orientation (it cut, but not cleanly!) and after I got over the disappointment of the quality of cut, I saw my mistake and put the tool the right way around. From then on (I have yet to complete the task....) everything went as I had hoped and the tool advanced by a known amount. I may live to regret this, but I think it should work fine. Fortunately Edgar T Westbury tells us the diameter is not too critical................we shall see.....
Some photo's................
I have long hankered after a set of slip gauges and have scanned eBay for many a month and was fortunate enough to get an imperials set there recently. So I brought these into use when sorting out the packing required between the cross slide and the casting base. You may well laugh but I had to get my digital calipers just to check whether there marked dimension was width, length etc. Putting that to one side I was able to make two stacks up for the casting to sit on whilst I compared the tapered centre in the headstock with the scribed line on the front of the casting.
Armed with this information I then sort out material for the casting to bolt to, giving me the least amount of work. I nearly came a cropper though when I was using a piece of aluminium I thought was the same width only to find on checking it was quite a bit out so it was fly cut in the mill and an extra piece of material sought (ended up as some sheet copper I have) before it was bolted down and the position checked.
After that it was just a case of making sure it was in line (used a dti to make sure) and then mounted the boring bar between a live centre in the tailstock and a half centre (only other MT2 I had) in the headstock. The bar is driven by a dog and home made brass pillar bolted to the faceplate.
After checking that I had sufficient movement on the cross slide I had to reverse the bar to allow the full travel. My next error was forgetting to make sure the tool was in the right orientation (it cut, but not cleanly!) and after I got over the disappointment of the quality of cut, I saw my mistake and put the tool the right way around. From then on (I have yet to complete the task....) everything went as I had hoped and the tool advanced by a known amount. I may live to regret this, but I think it should work fine. Fortunately Edgar T Westbury tells us the diameter is not too critical................we shall see.....
Some photo's................
Metal Mickey
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Well its been a while and for various reasons Iv'e not been posting, but prompted by Maryak I have updated this post to show I have made some progress (not enough) on the pair of Seal engines. So I thought I may as well update you with a few photo's and today's work. In reverse order then here is today's experiences in starting to make the valves (which are very very small!!) 
This morning I made a start on the valves for the pair of Edgar T Westbury's Seal engines I am building. Its been a while since my last work on this pair for various reasons but at least I managed to make a start on the valves.
I still have to finish the two flywheels but I seem to have had a bit of a block turning these and instead of ruining the good one I am leaving it alone while I start on something else. The valve stems are very small at only 3/32nd " in diameter (about 2.4mm in dia) and with a little apprehension I made a start by first making a pencil drawing from Edgar T's plans. I find this helps as I at least once have had to focus on the dimensions. Also it helps to clarify my approach to machining order.
I decided it would also be useful to refer to the 1947 Article in <a href="http://www.model-engineer.co.uk">Model Engineer</a> for guidance as well as several articles published in <a href="http://www.modelenginebuilder.com">Model Engine Builder</a> (American Magazine) but in the end I felt more confused with the different approaches and fixtures shown. So a 'trial' valve was the order of the day (my excuse in case it goes wrong.....then it turns into a 'trial' piece!).
I started by chucking some 3/8" diameter free cutting stainless steel before facing it off then centre drilling. Once done I decided to run a couple of light cuts to check the tailstock was in line. After the first cut I found it to be out about 2 thou over the short length so adjusted it until it ran true.
I first brought the length of the valve to the outside diameter of the valve over its length (except for approximately 1/4" at the live centre/tailstock end) to the design size of 9/32nd" (just over 7mm in diameter). Then working back from the chuck, using the digital readouts, I came to the point where further reduction of the stem was required.
Because of the thin stem I made light cuts (many many light cuts) but whilst it was more work at least I hoped to reduce the possibility of the valve stem doing its own thing and perhaps wrapping itself round the cutting tool! When getting close to the finish size I again checked it was parallel and was disappointed to find about a thou and a half of an inch difference! However running the tool along a couple of times brought everything back to where it was.
I decided to change the disposable insert for the final cut and was glad I did since it gave a nice bright surface. I then decided to try some of the micro mesh sanding pads I bought for my pens finishes and was really pleased with the results! Will definitely use these for metal as well now. They did work better with a little lubrication (WD40 sprayed on).
The next task was to cut the 45 degree face and to do this I set my top slide over to 45 deg. I used the DRO again to scribe a finish line on the outside of the untouched bar and when repositioning the cross slide to the face end simply kept cutting until reaching the scribed line. Checking the distance again with the DRO's (and magnifying glasses!).
Because of the small diameter of the stem I used my Proxxon tool with its Dremel quick fit cutting disc to cut the tailstock end but oversized. Once this was done the tool was changed to the parting tool and using the DRO to set the point I parted off the valve with the depth of the head a little oversize.
Next time I am going to make a fixture that will allow me to cut the 8BA thread on the end of the valve and also to face off the valve head to dimension, so not quite there yet but I must admit to being pleased at the first attempt! No doubt there are many failures to come with the next 17 needed (or even this one!) so I must not smile too much yet!
This morning I made a start on the valves for the pair of Edgar T Westbury's Seal engines I am building. Its been a while since my last work on this pair for various reasons but at least I managed to make a start on the valves.
I still have to finish the two flywheels but I seem to have had a bit of a block turning these and instead of ruining the good one I am leaving it alone while I start on something else. The valve stems are very small at only 3/32nd " in diameter (about 2.4mm in dia) and with a little apprehension I made a start by first making a pencil drawing from Edgar T's plans. I find this helps as I at least once have had to focus on the dimensions. Also it helps to clarify my approach to machining order.
I decided it would also be useful to refer to the 1947 Article in <a href="http://www.model-engineer.co.uk">Model Engineer</a> for guidance as well as several articles published in <a href="http://www.modelenginebuilder.com">Model Engine Builder</a> (American Magazine) but in the end I felt more confused with the different approaches and fixtures shown. So a 'trial' valve was the order of the day (my excuse in case it goes wrong.....then it turns into a 'trial' piece!).
I started by chucking some 3/8" diameter free cutting stainless steel before facing it off then centre drilling. Once done I decided to run a couple of light cuts to check the tailstock was in line. After the first cut I found it to be out about 2 thou over the short length so adjusted it until it ran true.
I first brought the length of the valve to the outside diameter of the valve over its length (except for approximately 1/4" at the live centre/tailstock end) to the design size of 9/32nd" (just over 7mm in diameter). Then working back from the chuck, using the digital readouts, I came to the point where further reduction of the stem was required.
Because of the thin stem I made light cuts (many many light cuts) but whilst it was more work at least I hoped to reduce the possibility of the valve stem doing its own thing and perhaps wrapping itself round the cutting tool! When getting close to the finish size I again checked it was parallel and was disappointed to find about a thou and a half of an inch difference! However running the tool along a couple of times brought everything back to where it was.
I decided to change the disposable insert for the final cut and was glad I did since it gave a nice bright surface. I then decided to try some of the micro mesh sanding pads I bought for my pens finishes and was really pleased with the results! Will definitely use these for metal as well now. They did work better with a little lubrication (WD40 sprayed on).
The next task was to cut the 45 degree face and to do this I set my top slide over to 45 deg. I used the DRO again to scribe a finish line on the outside of the untouched bar and when repositioning the cross slide to the face end simply kept cutting until reaching the scribed line. Checking the distance again with the DRO's (and magnifying glasses!).
Because of the small diameter of the stem I used my Proxxon tool with its Dremel quick fit cutting disc to cut the tailstock end but oversized. Once this was done the tool was changed to the parting tool and using the DRO to set the point I parted off the valve with the depth of the head a little oversize.
Next time I am going to make a fixture that will allow me to cut the 8BA thread on the end of the valve and also to face off the valve head to dimension, so not quite there yet but I must admit to being pleased at the first attempt! No doubt there are many failures to come with the next 17 needed (or even this one!) so I must not smile too much yet!
Mike,
Good to see you back in the shop. Hope all is going well.
Also glad to see you back working on the Seal. I was afraid it had fallen off to oblivion.
Nice work on the valve. Hopefully the rest will go just as well.
Good to see you back in the shop. Hope all is going well.
Also glad to see you back working on the Seal. I was afraid it had fallen off to oblivion.
Nice work on the valve. Hopefully the rest will go just as well.
Metal Mickey
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Thanks Maryak and Ksouers,
Yesterday was a bad day! The plans have another error in relation to the threading of the valve stem with 8BA thread. When checking the diameter for a 8BA thread the valve stem is oversized and no mention in his build article (model Engineer 1947) so in my clumsy (I knew I shouldn't be out there) attempts to thread the end of the now 'practice valve' resorted in a bent end, very painful!
However I am not too despondent since I have now established my method of production and ironed out any little snags....
I have written it up on my blog http://www.mikes-models.com/blog
The photo of the bent valve is below.....
Yesterday was a bad day! The plans have another error in relation to the threading of the valve stem with 8BA thread. When checking the diameter for a 8BA thread the valve stem is oversized and no mention in his build article (model Engineer 1947) so in my clumsy (I knew I shouldn't be out there) attempts to thread the end of the now 'practice valve' resorted in a bent end, very painful!
However I am not too despondent since I have now established my method of production and ironed out any little snags....
I have written it up on my blog http://www.mikes-models.com/blog
The photo of the bent valve is below.....
Hi Mike,
I might be able to shed some light on the castings for you.
As you know, you purchased your first set from myself.
They came from the now defunct Woking Precision many years ago, complete with all the bits to go with it. You also know that Hemingway took over the Westbury range from Woking and supposedly 'remastered' a few of the bits (if not all), so that will account for all the differences you are finding.
I do know that under Woking control, the Westbury range of castings were definitely suspect, and I think their quality control wasn't really up to it as it was a one man band.
In fact, it was a set of Woking castings for the 'Whippet' that put me off making from castings for many years, and even though I have had it running, it was never completely finished off. Hemingway also released these castings as well, and it looks like they are still using the crappy out of register moulds for it, as they tried to build a pair over on The Model Engine site, and looks to have died a death because of the problems encountered.
I don't know if Hemingway have corrected the Seal castings and plans to cure the most obvious mistake on the originals of the inlet/exhaust studs cutting thru the head mounting studs, or vice versa, depending which were done first. Definitely a thing to be checked.
John
I might be able to shed some light on the castings for you.
As you know, you purchased your first set from myself.
They came from the now defunct Woking Precision many years ago, complete with all the bits to go with it. You also know that Hemingway took over the Westbury range from Woking and supposedly 'remastered' a few of the bits (if not all), so that will account for all the differences you are finding.
I do know that under Woking control, the Westbury range of castings were definitely suspect, and I think their quality control wasn't really up to it as it was a one man band.
In fact, it was a set of Woking castings for the 'Whippet' that put me off making from castings for many years, and even though I have had it running, it was never completely finished off. Hemingway also released these castings as well, and it looks like they are still using the crappy out of register moulds for it, as they tried to build a pair over on The Model Engine site, and looks to have died a death because of the problems encountered.
I don't know if Hemingway have corrected the Seal castings and plans to cure the most obvious mistake on the originals of the inlet/exhaust studs cutting thru the head mounting studs, or vice versa, depending which were done first. Definitely a thing to be checked.
John
Metal Mickey
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Many thanks for your comments Gordy, they do spur you on (well they do to me!).
Hello John, nice to see you back posting. Your information re the castings does ring true against the info I have been able to gather. I am aware of the stud issue bit thanks for the heads up. Since the design is over 60 years old you would think the bugs were out now but they are not! The plans still have many mistakes, my favourite at the moment is the 2 9/8" measurement. More annoying however was the drawing of the valve not showing any reduction to allow the 8BA threading!
Still, some progress was made the last couple of sessions with the valves. I now have a good methodology for turning the valves that works for me so its now a case of producing the 16 I need for both engines. I have decided to make the valves in two stages. First complete all the turning and secondly to thread the valve stem 8BA then face the valve off to length.
So far I have one completed valve and a further two completed to stage 1 (i.e not faced or threaded yet).
I think it will be a good weeks work for my session length, but I am taking it one step at a time etc. Anyway a couple of photo's
Hello John, nice to see you back posting. Your information re the castings does ring true against the info I have been able to gather. I am aware of the stud issue bit thanks for the heads up. Since the design is over 60 years old you would think the bugs were out now but they are not! The plans still have many mistakes, my favourite at the moment is the 2 9/8" measurement. More annoying however was the drawing of the valve not showing any reduction to allow the 8BA threading!
Still, some progress was made the last couple of sessions with the valves. I now have a good methodology for turning the valves that works for me so its now a case of producing the 16 I need for both engines. I have decided to make the valves in two stages. First complete all the turning and secondly to thread the valve stem 8BA then face the valve off to length.
So far I have one completed valve and a further two completed to stage 1 (i.e not faced or threaded yet).
I think it will be a good weeks work for my session length, but I am taking it one step at a time etc. Anyway a couple of photo's
Good to see you are back in the shop and making progress. Now get these little engines out of the way and get on with that Fowler
Jason
Jason
Metal Mickey
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Jason, I really love the work you are doing with your and get the latest pictures. The trouble with the Fowler is as soon as she is finished I will sell her since I am a builder not a runner as it were, well that's my excuse! Also now that your ahead of me I have someone who has sorted all the problems! Just don't steam her yet!
Mike
Mike
Hi Mike,
Seeing those valves brings back memories for me, I loved making them.
Are you using the 'modelling' technique for the valves, that is both valve and seat cut to 45 degrees, or the usual full size practice of one degree difference, IE seat at 45 degs, valve at 46 degs, or valve at 45 and seat at 44 depending if you cut or ground the seats initially?
For larger valves, I always used the one deg split, it allowed you to achieve a much narrower seat and a better seal. I will be using that method when eventually I get to making my new R&B engine from castings.
Keep up the good work, you are making very good progress, despite the problems you are encountering.
John
Seeing those valves brings back memories for me, I loved making them.
Are you using the 'modelling' technique for the valves, that is both valve and seat cut to 45 degrees, or the usual full size practice of one degree difference, IE seat at 45 degs, valve at 46 degs, or valve at 45 and seat at 44 depending if you cut or ground the seats initially?
For larger valves, I always used the one deg split, it allowed you to achieve a much narrower seat and a better seal. I will be using that method when eventually I get to making my new R&B engine from castings.
Keep up the good work, you are making very good progress, despite the problems you are encountering.
John
Maryak
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Metal Mickey said:
Mike,
Glad you sorted the valve problem. Funny but IMHO if a model engineering project has mistakes in the drawing or in the associated castings they are rarely corrected. My 1st ICE was the same, the design was 1934 but the drawing bought in 2007 still had the original errors and required a rework to allow the engine to fit together. If it was your lathe, mill, drill etc. you would be seeking compensation from the manufacturer/distributor.
I guess we modelers like the challenge of working around the problem more than we do the challenge of compensation from those who are in effect charging money for goods which are not fit for the purpose.
Apologies for the rant and the hijack.
Best Regards
Bob
the engineer
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i had the same problem with the inlet studs on the sealion then i saw the modification someone did cant remember if it was on this site but it sure worked out all right in the end.
the sealion was the first engine casting set i procured re deseased estate
and doing a multi cly engine as a first led to lots of stupid mistakes and frustrations .so back in the box it went for a few years.
got a few simple ones under my belt before bringing it to completion.
also in the box with it was two kittywake sets or so i thought it now appears that one is the lesser known kitty hawk a larger scaled version of the kitty wake but what i wanted to say was that i found the castings for the kittywake and the sealion to be very brittle and ended up helicoiling the sealion headstuds into the block it may have been the age of the castings but the overall finish was quite poor and definatly not to the standard of the E T westbury we read of
its good to see the work you have done on these seal engines and thanks for the insperation you have given me to get back and re start on the kittywake which is now nearing completion
thanks to ebay i found the plans for the carb which i lacked and have also found a source for the plans of the kittyhawk so if little brother works ok it may end up with a big brother to sit beside
so thanks again regards john
the sealion was the first engine casting set i procured re deseased estate
and doing a multi cly engine as a first led to lots of stupid mistakes and frustrations .so back in the box it went for a few years.
got a few simple ones under my belt before bringing it to completion.
also in the box with it was two kittywake sets or so i thought it now appears that one is the lesser known kitty hawk a larger scaled version of the kitty wake but what i wanted to say was that i found the castings for the kittywake and the sealion to be very brittle and ended up helicoiling the sealion headstuds into the block it may have been the age of the castings but the overall finish was quite poor and definatly not to the standard of the E T westbury we read of
its good to see the work you have done on these seal engines and thanks for the insperation you have given me to get back and re start on the kittywake which is now nearing completion
thanks to ebay i found the plans for the carb which i lacked and have also found a source for the plans of the kittyhawk so if little brother works ok it may end up with a big brother to sit beside
so thanks again regards john
Metal Mickey
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Bogstandard said:
Hello John, I must admit I wasn't aware of a 1 degree difference method. I was just going to make them the same and then try and seat them similar to full side valve grinding.....Now I will have to have a thunk. The good news is I haven't made any of the valve guides to the stage of cutting the mating seating.
Is there anyone else who would like to pass comment on Johns method?
Managed to make another two valves this morning (excluding the threaded end and facing to size) and have decided that I will carry out the final stage when I have made the first 8. Next session after that will be to machine up the valve guides but that will not happen until next week (fingers crossed).
Bob, I have to agree with you! The words uttered after I made valve one when the problem arose were a little more than 'oh bother'. Its a funny thing but I really like the little valves, more so than other items I have made in the past. I suppose its because they are so small. The stem diameter is less than 100 and their overall length is only 1.25" long. I didn't know I could make them especially to the tolerances I am achieving.
the engineer said:
John is your build on this forum (Sorry for not knowing..) as I would like to see your build....
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