silver solder

Home Model Engine Machinist Forum

Help Support Home Model Engine Machinist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

blockmanjohn

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2016
Messages
136
Reaction score
6
I have to silver solder some unions to make up steam pipes for my recently completed Stuart beam engine. I have never done this before and am looking for advice on instructions and what supplies I will need. Also where to purchase the supplies. Thank you in advance, John.
 
John, you need to put your general location in your profile so we know how to advise you. It wouldn't help if I told you where to get supplies in the US, for example, if you are in the UK.
Basically, you need solder containing silver, a good flux, and a torch. I use Harris solder and flux available at my local welding supplier. A Bernzomatic Maps gas torch from Lowe's provides the heat.

Chuck
 
I have done some silver soldering, but am no expert, by far. I am holding off on the how-to for the more experienced folks. I do have some instructions saved somewhere. I'll see what I can find that might help.
Have you done any kind of soldering? Plumbing, electronic? Methods are similar, but heat is hotter and the solder is harder. Cleanliness of components to be joined is still a definite requirement. Less is best, no "bigger the job, the bigger the blob" techniques...
BTW, I'm originally from Sidney, NY, near Binghamton.
Chuck
 
I have done quite a bit of soldering plumbing fittings. What type of flux is best? I have seen many types when I looked in Amazon. John
 
I have only seen and used white flux, but have heard there's a black flux also. I'll have to go out to the garage and dig out my soldering kit.

Chuck
 
There are two fluxes , a white flux good for temperatures in the normal range of the silver solders 1200 degrees. A black flux is good up to around 1800 degrees and I doubt that you would need it. I make sure I get cadmium free solder which is safer to use. Good ventilation require regardless of the choice. Also the flux can always be " revived " with the addition of a little water if it drys out in the jar.
Kind of brief, but I hope this helps you.

Brian
 
1. Clean the joints.
2. Flux with white flux. Coat beyond the joint area and this will keep the metal from discoloring.
3. Use a high silver content solder or braze as some call it. Usually for pipe joints or small items I use 54% silver solder. 1/16 diameter solder is good.
4. User a pair of side cutters and cut some small pieces off the coil of solder. No longer than .04-.05 long.
5. Using a propane torch start heating the area until the flux starts to get clear (looks like water droplets).
6. Using a pair of tweezers or needle nosed pliers lay a piece of the silver solder into the flux. Have a small rod handy to keep the solder in place. It will try to roll around the pipe.
7. Start heating the joint again (slowly) If you overheat it you have to start over. Keep the piece of solder against the joint by just touching it with the rod. Don't hold the rod against it.
8. When the joint is hot enough the solder will soften and flow around the joint. Remember, solder flows toward the heat. If it looks like the solder has melted at the spot it was sitting but didn't flow around the joint completely move the torch to the other side of the joint. For small thin sections this isn't generally needed as the parts will absorb enough heat to flow the solder.
The reason I use this method is because if you try and touch the solder stick to the joint once it gets hot the heat from the torch will soften too much solder and you'll get a big clump of solder on your parts. It's not that it can't be done this way but it takes practice and a steady hand.
To clean the solder from the joint use an old sauce pan (preferably glass) Boil some water and put the part in. This will soften and clean the flux from the part.
gbritnell
 
Point 2,you mention to coat the flux beyond the joint.I find that this
pulls the solder to all the fluxed area.I find it better to flux ONLY the joint area
better joint and less solder to clean off.Not being critical,just my thoughts Regards barry
 
I would agree with Mr Brttnell and have ticked ,a like,However when a bigger solder job comes up you have to run the heated fluxed rod along the joint. Again, you may have upgrade the heat source. I always used a soft flame with oxy acetylene ��
It or oxy propane is a very useful skill to acquire because with a little more know how, you can braze or join steels or whatever. Most jobbing garages have ,bottle set, in the corner.

Wishing you all well. ---from Fiji

Norman
 
For pipe joints, try to obtain silver solder wire, I use 0.5mm diameter.
Wrap a length around the pipes you are trying to braze to form like a spring, then cut the spring along the length to form a few 'rings'.
Mix flux with a tiny bit of water with one tiny drop of washing up liquid in it, I use a small tupperware container to mix mine in, and if it dries out over the years, just add a tiny bit more of water to regenerate, it should have the consistency of unwhipped whipping cream.
Slide one of the rings onto the pipe and dip the end of the pipe into the flux and push the joint together and wipe off any excess flux, you need the flux down the joint, not all over the pipe. Slide the ring of solder down to the joint and just apply heat around the joint. The joint should form in a few seconds, job done.
Drop joint into some saturated citric acid and leave it to pickle for an hour. Lift out, wash in water and rub around the joint with some wire wool, dry and it is ready for assembly.

soldering.jpg


finish13.jpg


finish14.jpg


finish16.jpg


finish17.jpg


finish18.jpg


finish21.jpg


Hope this helps

John
 
Norman...very well explained...clem

What has to appreciated is that 'the joining process' goes from something like my late wife's orthodontic work wth a mouth blown little alcohol burner with little brass tubes to a battleship. It's like that.My worst experience was teaching an older bloke, who was doing a 5 inch Simplex boiler and had a heart attack with me feeding him with nitro glycerine on the way to hospital.:fan:

Well, now?
Norm
 
Thanks to all for the expert advice. I know your time is valuable and I really appreciate the help. There is no doubt in my mind that I can now do a good job of completing the steam pipes. John
 
Thanks to all for the expert advice. I know your time is valuable and I really appreciate the help. There is no doubt in my mind that I can now do a good job of completing the steam pipes. John

Hi John,

Gbritnell and Blogwitch have given best advice and both are highly experienced at silver brazing. Heating Power is very important. Silver brazing is in fact best over soft solder. I use Mapp Gas Torches for small jobs and 30---40% Silver Content for best results. Mapp has single burner/twin burner/,three burner torches. I use three burner torch.
 
First, why use silver solder? soft solder is probably adequate for this application. That said, no-one emphasized it enough, CLEAN the surfaces.. That means bright metal cleaned with emory paper immediately before heating. Also, a non-oxidizing flame source. I find Mapp or propane has less tendency to oxidize the metal during heating. Also, the molten solder will tend to be drawn toward the heat source, apply the heat away from the opening and it will draw the solder toward the heat. Also, leave some clearance for the solder to penetrate, a really tight joint can't allow solder to flow into it
 
Lots of good advice here. I can't say I've shiver so,Derek anything but have done a lot of plumbing with soft solder and a bit of arc welding. One key aspect that needs to be stressed with all of these processes in that the metal has to be clean, this even applies for arc welding. Clean metal makes all the difference in the world.

When doing copper pipe the old phrase "if it isn't pink it isn't ready" is often used by plumbers. You want the copper or brass completely clean of corrosion or oxidation. This means both the male and the female parts of the joint.

While not related to this question clean metal is also required to get good results with many welding processes. People will try to rely upon the flux for cleaning action be it a weldments or soldered connection, this is a bit foolish and can lead to joint issues. Cleaning should be considered of primary importance when joining metals with any of these processes.
 
First, why use silver solder? soft solder is probably adequate for this application.
It might be, it all depends upon how hot the joint gets and if there are any mechanical demands to be concerned with. I do believe silver solder will lead to a better joint though.
That said, no-one emphasized it enough, CLEAN the surfaces..
This needs to be stressed over and over again!!! Clean surfaces are an absolute must to get good results.
That means bright metal cleaned with emory paper immediately before heating. Also, a non-oxidizing flame source. I find Mapp or propane has less tendency to oxidize the metal during heating. Also, the molten solder will tend to be drawn toward the heat source, apply the heat away from the opening and it will draw the solder toward the heat. Also, leave some clearance for the solder to penetrate, a really tight joint can't allow solder to flow into it


Obviously this is a bit different than some of the assemblies for engine building but when I was taught plumbing type soldering the goal was to heat from one side. You knew the joint was hot enough when solder meta led on the side opposite where the torch was. This unfortunately doesn't work well with oddly sized parts. If one part is far more massive than the pipe you need to heat the massive part of the assembly first.
 
Just to answer a few of the queries raised in previous posts.

Why not use soft solder?

To put it bluntly, it is just not a strong enough joint. When working on small engines, vibration has to be taken into account, and with a soft soldered joint, they fail all too often because of this problem.
A good hard soldered joint (silver soldered or as the US call it, silver braze) should be almost indestructible.
I carried out a test to determine how strong the joints were when making steel to copper joints while building my Paddleducks engines, and I think this picture tells all, the joint just wouldn't give way, the actual copper pipe eventually failed.

Tryingtobreakit-1.jpg


I forgot to mention about cleanliness, but I have found over the years a very good method.
I clean the joints with carpenters steel wool, this has no oil preservative on it unlike general purpose cheapo wool, which has oil on it to stop it corroding.
So basically, I rub over the joints with wire wool, then wipe everything over with a bit of spirits (denatured alcohol or Isopropanol), I find that this is enough.
Do not use anything that has grit on it, like emery or sandpaper. If any bits come off onto the joint area, it can penetrate and get incorporated into the joint and cause a weak spot, if you get any steel wool in the joint, it just becomes part of the joint.
I personally don't go to great lengths with cleaning purely because I use a perfect flux for this type of work.
Here in the UK, unlike the US and other parts of the world, we have specialists who make such things for industry and model engineering, and you can obtain a variety of fluxes and silver solders to join almost all materials that can be joined by such methods. So for people who are not in the UK, dig deep in your pockets and buy yourself a tub of Tenacity 5 flux, you will never regret it. This flux was designed for silver soldering stainless steel, but it works with everything else. The main advantage is that it cleans the material as it is being heated up and withstands temperatures where other fluxes would have given up and caused a failed joint.

I haven't bought any 1/16" silver solder rods for many many years, it is just too cumbersome to use when confronted with tiny joints, you tend to get the solder everywhere. You need very little solder to form the joint, and any excess is a waste of this expensive item. I use either 0.5mm wire, used as shown in pictures above on my previous post or silver solder sheet, which is about 0.005" thick. This is cut into what are called 'Pallions' using normal scissors, and is placed onto or into the joint, using the flux like a 'glue'. It is then just a matter of heating up the largest part of the job and the solder will automatically flow into the work, giving you perfect joints with no need to file all the excess solder off, as if you have calculated right, there should be no excess at all.

For cleaning up afterwards you use a process called 'pickling'. There are lots of potions and lotions that people use, from heavy highly dangerous acids and alkalis to mothers' pickling vinegar.
You can't go far wrong by going into a brewing shop (in the UK) and buy yourself a kilo of citric acid crystals. This should last you the rest of your life.

I mix it up by using say a pint of warm or hot water, and gently adding the crystals until you see that no more are being absorbed into the water. This stuff is so safe you can just add sugar and feed it to the mother in law as lemonade.
I keep this in a tupperware sealed container and use it until it no longer does it's job.
Just drop the soldered bits into it and leave for about an hour. The parts should come out nice and clean and can be then polished up with a bit of wire wool. Don't worry about leaving it in there too long, the workpiece shouldn't suffer, in fact, I left a part in my pickle for many months, and it didn't suffer any ill effects at all.

For heating the job up to carry out your soldering.
For me, say the job is equal to a 1.5" cube of material or smaller, I would use just a plumbers butane/propane soldering torch, and larger than that, I would get out my larger propane blowtorch that is supplied by a large gas bottle, in fact if it is a really large job, say a loco steam boiler, I would get help and use two blowtorches, a big one for heating the main part of the job and a smaller one for localised heat.

Where many people go wrong is that they don't put enough heat into the job and the solder just won't 'flash' into the joint. This then causes a problem, the solder you have just heated up and turned into a ball on the surface of the job has change properties, the melting temperature will have risen and will require even more heat and flux to get it to remelt.
There is a fine line between too little and too much heat in the job, this is where a long lasting flux is required, it gives you a longer working time. If you heat up just the major part of the job and watch the solder itself, once it has reached the perfect heat, it will 'flash' into the joint, any more heat and you are liable to 'cook' the joint and it will be weak.

So basically, keep an eye on the solder, I sometimes use my tinted driving glasses so that I can see when the solder has flowed, through the glare from the hot metal.
Sometimes it is all over in a few seconds, other times you can spend half an hour getting the job up to working temperature.

NEVER point the torch at the solder, ALWAYS at the major part of the job.

It is all to do with practice and experience, then more practice and experience.

I hope that this has helped a little.

John
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top