X3 Advice requested

[DickDastardly40]

In the next year or so, if the money in the sock under the floorboards swells enough, I would like to add another milling machine to complement my BCA Jig Borer. I have looked at new and used thus far and am almost decided on an X3 due to a variety of considerations:

Reasonable size to fit in a single car garage workshop with all my other equipment
Good work envelope, possibly beyond my current needs but bigger = more flexibility for the future.
New therefore hopefully reliable, accurate and user friendly
Upgradeable to CNC in due course if I decide to follow this route
Available support and spare parts
Appears well made, designed and as far as I can tell well regarded.

My stumbling block is on UK suppliers, various vendors stock a clone, badged and painted differently, however the prices seem to vary wildly. Some have more features but I cannot decide if the extras are worthy of the inflated prices.

The ones I have nosed out are:

http://arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines/Model-X3-Small-Mill

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=377295&name=milling&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=44

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=377659&name=milling&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=44

http://www.warco.co.uk/shop.asp?catid=40&ProdId=923

http://www.engineerstoolroom.co.uk/bmd-25.htm

I am pretty sure that Chester stock one but I couldn’t decide which model on their website was the equivalent!

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/milling_machines.htm

No second hand ones ever seem to be on Ebay etc, and though I am not averse to something older and run-in, new seems to be the way ahead.

There’s many a slip twixt cup and lip so it’s entirely possible that this doesn’t become a reality if SWMBO gets wind, so I’d appreciate it if you fellas kept it to yourselves!

I would appreciate the ideas and opinions from members if they have an X3 or have aspirations of one, and also if they think that the tilting head, back gear, higher top speed etc are worth any extra premium.

Thanks for any input.

Al

 

[Cedge]

Al
I have the SX3 version and I'm very happy with it. While I've only needed the tilt head a couple of times, in anger, it certainly does make tramming the mill an extremely painless exercise. The mill is nice and rigid and quite heavy for a hobby mill. It can take a pretty aggressive cut without complaint. The DRO on the quill was a welcome item and was no real problem to wire to my existing display. I do not regret on any level the choice to go with the R-8 spindle.

Mine came out of the box pretty much ready to work. No red grease, anywhere and nothing needed any serious re-jiggering. That could have been unique to my seller, but I'm not sure. It was a totally different and much cleaner experience from the X2 I started with.

Al... if I were in shopping mode, knowing what I know now, I'd still buy the SX3, but I'd have to consider the X3 as well. Both versions are a step above my original expectations.

I didn't see either X3 machine in the Chester UK line up.

Steve

 

[Bluechip]

Hi DD40

Was going to do a post on similar subject. I was thinking of a Warco WM 16 or 18. But I'm not too enthusiastic about MT2 / MT3 tapers. They reckon 'Self Extracting' but to me, from a non-mechanical background, MT's are a gripping taper, not a locating taper. Cedge 'sort of' mentions this in his reply and I've seen the same opinion in another forum. If you take delivery etc. into account the prices are much the same, to within about £100, although I've not done a precise anaysis.
My other thought was a WABECO F1200E, with a Int30 taper, but, if you include a cabinet stand in all cases, about twice the price. As I do not have a SWMBO, I answer to myself only. Price, within reason, is not a problem. I just don't see any advantage in paying £2800 - ish, when £1300 - ish will do the job.
Would someone like to comment on MT's on milling machine spindles. Are they an imagined disadvantage, or real. On the plus side I have a lot of MT tooling that would fit 2/3MT, but a Int30 / MT adapter is cheap enough so that's not a stopper.
Popular rumour has it that the WABECO is a much better machine, I know of no-one who has got one.

Dave

 

[firebird]

Hi Al

I have an X3. If you check out my post in MACHINE MODIFICATIONS MOTORISED MILL you will see mine in action. Ive had it for about 4 months and so far can't fault it. I bought mine from arc eurotrade (usual disclaimer) from whom I now buy most of my supplies. I live close enough to arc to visit personally so carriage costs are not a problem for me. Calling in person gives you the chance to see their own workshops and extensive parts dept and showroom. I paid £600.00 for mine. The X axis travel is considerable thats why, with the help of Julian, it has been motorised. I have also fitted DRO's to the X and Y axis (supplied by arc). This is a must do mod in my opinion. The machine is calibrated in metric but having DRO's means you can switch between imperial and metric at the touch of a button. A real bonus for me as my myford lathe is imperial so changing parts between lathe and mill is easy. I had a choice between MT3 or R8. After some research I opted for the R8 which was reccomended by just about everyone. Having used the mill for a while I have to say that the R8 is easy to use. Undo the draw bar and a light tap with the spanner is all thats needed to break the collet free. I have purchased a R8 to MT2 adapter so that all the tooling I bought for my small X1 can be used. I have also purchased a 0-10mm chuck and R8 adapter as the supplied 0-16mm chuck supplied with the machine is physically too large when doing smaller work. I have never used or needed a tilt head/column (my X1 has the facility) so can't comment but arc are developing an adapter for the X3 which will allow the head to tilt. If you need any questions answered about the machine itself just ring arc and speak to Ketan the owner, you will find him most helpful. Just say Rich and Julian recomended him.

Cheers

Rich

 

[CrewCab]

I looked at the X3 before I settled on my X2, it's a very nice machine imho, I went for the X2 for a variety of reasons, mainly thinking I'd best start small and take it from there : and now, 6 months down the line I think that was the right way to go as I have remembered lots and learnt a heck of a lot more .... and that leaning curve will continue no doubt. Now; I must admit I can see the advantage sometimes of a bigger and heavier machine and in all honesty if money did grow on trees, and assuming said tree was in our garden, I'd probably go an' buy a bigger one ............. so here's my take on it ..........

1st Choice would be a second hand Bridgeport or Adcock and Shipley clone (built under licence in the UK I believe) (Cost about £900 - £1100) ..... won't happen as it's too tall to fit in my workshop/garage/house ......... ???

2nd Choice ....... after having this same conversation with Bogsie only a day or so ago would be This one, cost £1500

3rd Choice - X3 ....... £700 - £1000 give or take a bit

however if I was going the CNC route I believe it would be an X3 without doubt.


Please bear in mind guys these choices are purely based on "lust" : :big: ......... obviously financial considerations have to come into play, which also means, for the present I'm sticking with my X2 ........... but I'll continue to buy my lottery ticket on Saturday's :

By the way, I think the best person to talk to about the capabilities of X3's is John Stevenson as he seems to be is the GURU regarding X3 + CNC, if he don't pop in here just drop him a pm.

CC

 

[DickDastardly40]

Gents,

Thank-you very much for your input which pretty much bears out my previous thinking.

Bluechip, I looked at the Wabeco on the stand at the UK Midlands show earlier this month. Twice the price for much the same capacity (plus tooling) even if engineered by Germans made it a non-runner in my book.

The Chester 626 or Warco equiv doesn't float my boat, don't ask me why! ???

I think that an R8 spindle with a ER32 collet chuck for majority use and an MT2 adapter for odd occasions would make the most pragmatic choice.

Another question I have is max spindle speed, it seems to vary from 3000 RPM downwards, have any other users found any constraints from a lower 2000 max on the Arc machine.

For future flexibility of use, the tilt head remains on the 'wish list' however as I am not going to be shelling out for a little while, I'll see what developments Arc make with their attachment.

Hopefully I won't have to deal with a household emergency spend such as replacing the bathroom again too soon so can gather a bit more cash. I suspect the prices will rise before I am ready to buy but that is life.

Al

 

[JonnyD]

Al,

I had a Super X3 since the original day it was released. IMHO the tilting head is not worth it.
But you do get several nice addtl feature such as

Regarding the max top speed (1750 ... 3500). It's a simple change of a pulley on top.
The spindle speed will still read 1750 if you don't upgrade the electronics but physically it'll do 3500.
It just hum @ 3500.

You really need the high spindle speed for engraving & 3D milling. For manual milling if you don't plan to use a 1/8" or smaller end mill you don't need this.

Jonathan

 

[DickDastardly40]

The Chester 626 or Warco equiv doesn't float my boat, don't ask me why! ???

Funny how things change, I have nosed out an older style Warco VMC for £650 + £70 delivery. It doesn't have fine feed to the quill which means boring would be done via the knee and is apparently a bit scruffy to look at.

Decisions, Decisions, close to Christmas, deal won't wait forever, SWMBO won't approve, need to re-organise workshop etc etc.

I won't ask for your opinion because I know what it'll be! ;D I might go and look at it this week and see if it follows me home.

 

[CrewCab]

I might go and look at it this week and see if it follows me home.

At that price it's got to be worth having a look 8)

CC

 

[DickDastardly40]

No prizes for guessing what happened next.

Strangely SWMBO barely batted an eye when I mentioned I was going out to look at the the VMC and didn't baulk at the asking price.

As mentioned it is an older spec one with an R8 spindle and metric dials. It is without the sensitive drive to the quill but has a brand new motor. The table is patina'd but free of dings and the paint work needs cutting back to make it look a little less dingy. Everything moves as it should, just needs some loving.

I agonised over night, did some sums, discounted them and just put the phone down about 15 minutes ago having bought it. I now await a call for when it can be delivered, hopefully before Xmas.

I didn't go mad on tooling yet, just some clamps, an ER25 collet chuck (I already have a collet set) and a jacobs chuck.

Gotta plan where to put it now! Pics to follow when it arrives.

Al

 

[kvom]

 

[DickDastardly40]

Well now here I thought we were all nice people on this board!

Al, how can you casually mention getting a VMC (!!!) and not have the pictures already up!

That's cruel and unusual punishment I tell you.

<Me walks away in a huff>

BW

Here it is as delivered on 23rd of Dec when I was busy doing pre Xmas household chores. I had expected a little bit more notice than a call telling me the delivery driver was outside the front door.

The greasy grime comes off with some elbow grease, wanted to get ti sited and tested before cleaning though

Here it is almost in position, the brick pier behind prevents it swiveling to the left so needs to come forwards a little.

First job some eccentric drilling:

All seems well so far, just need to get in the way of changing speeds easily.

Al