Top Fuel replica engine

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Twinfire

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Hello all at Home Model Engine Machinist.

I have just joined your forum/site after seeing what Kieth5700 created. This spurned a question...

Just how complicated would it be to replicate one of those 10 000hp 8 lt Nitro Methanol burning V8's?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Fuel

My forte is building things from steel with a welder and grinder, machining something from scratch amazes me. I see it as a challenge.

annnnd to get some reasonable horsepower out of it....a reasonable capacity of under 200cc would help. So many questions.

I appreciate that everyone's time is valuable, if anyone could give me some clues about this "idea" of mine they would be much appreciated :p:)Thm:

Twin from West Australia
 
My brother in law is involved with some of the top fuel boats. I have been working on him for years for drawings of the engines but so far nothing. Most of the parts would be easy enough to fake but the heads would be a big challenge without an actual head to "model". If you could get access to a real engine it could be done.

DSCN0940s.jpg~original
 
Just about any engine built can be replicated as a model.
Amazing things have been done by the masters.

People have built replicas of the rolls Royce Merlin engine.
Lou Chenot build a working miniature 1/6 scale replica of a 1932 Duesenberg.
George Luhrs Made a set of radial aircraft engine one can hold in the hand.

complicated

In many cases these projects take years to complete. expect to spend a few thousand on tooling. hundreds if not thousands on materials and thousands if not tens of thousands of hours to build. Lots patience and perseverance .
Tin
 
More time and patients than you can shake a stick at that's what it takes. Spending the money on tools, tooling and materials is easy (not that thousands of dollars is easy to justify) compared to the labor to create those masterpieces of metal.

John.
 
I would love to see a Top Fuel motor running on nitro at the Cabin Fever Expo!
It takes me years to build a one cylinder engine - I can't imagine the time and effort involved in building a Nitro powered V-8
By the way, if you are any kind of a gearhead, you should try to see the full sized Top Fuel Dragsters in action at least once. There is nothing else in motorsports that comes even close to the noise and violence of these cars!
cheepo45
 
As an old petrol head (Nitro) to see these full size machines car, boat and bikes are close to my heart.

It would be good in my eyes to see a model nitro engine power output either in competition or on a dyno.

Paul (Windy)
 
There was a guy at cabin fever last year had a model boat with a pair of commercially built IIRC v8s.
Tin
 
Not top fuel but closely related, I have started building a 1/4 (semi) scale model of a cosworth dfv to go into a planned model of McLaren M7a. Its approx 1/4 scale, V8, 9.95cc/cylinder, flat crank.

I know people arent that judgemental on this particular forum, but i havent posted pics online of the engine yet because the machining isnt up to the quality i wish it was, and i havent done all the filing and sanding to make it look pretty yet. If you have more questions, feel free to ask, and i may be able to help.
 
Not top fuel but closely related, I have started building a 1/4 (semi) scale model of a cosworth dfv to go into a planned model of McLaren M7a. Its approx 1/4 scale, V8, 9.95cc/cylinder, flat crank.

The Dfv will be a beautiful model!! :) :) Look forward to seeing your thread when your ready.
 
You mean something like this?
http://www.conleyprecision.com/

Yeah, but maybe a bit bigger, I thinks the stinger 609 is 6.09 ci which is almost 100cc and it has a roots style blower. On the 'tube there is a 1/4 scale Grave Digger monster truck powered by one of these little beasties.

Going larger capacity sorta takes things out of the model size of things I guess. Ah a man can dream.

Would a v twin prototype work to sort out the specifics, maybe a centrifugal type blower would provide easier boost, the complexities of compressor wheel design. My idea is fins on a flat disk in a scroll housing of sorts.

Mechanical fuel injection would be an total brain fart to create, the full scale monsters have 32 injectors working on constant flow. That won't work on a model.

Bear in mind i'm no cad wizard so getting this on a plan of sorts will take some assistance. I know a guy who might get this in pixel form.

What are some of the obvious pitfalls with a project like this?

I appreciate your time and input with this, expands my horizon.

Twinfire
 
What are some of the obvious pitfalls with a project like this?

First of all unless you are an experienced machinist you are up against a steep learning curve. We generally recommend building at least one if not a few simple air/steam engines to build the skills and build the shop. Then build a simple single cylinder Internal combustion engine then move to the Multiple cylinder ones.
You will probably need to build a machine to grind your crankshaft and your cams.
Learn to create parts to tight tolerances with a smooth finish. If you can not hold a tolerance on one part it will be difficult to make 8 or 10 parts the same. I say ten because spares are not a bad thing and if the last operation on the last part goes sideways you have another one to work on without going back and starting by cutting a piece of your bar stock.

It can take years just to learn the skills to start a project of the complexity you are talking about.

Bear in mind i'm no cad wizard so getting this on a plan of sorts will take some assistance. I know a guy who might get this in pixel form
The more complex the project the more important the plans. You want to know the size and shape of each part before you cut metal. You want to find an eliminate any errors before you start. I would hate to see you make 8 connecting rods only to find out they are wrong.


You are not only talking about building a very complex engine but designing it as well. you may just need to become a cad expert.
so I suggest to take a simple plan set like an oscillator and redraw in cad then build it as a start.
The late great Elmer Versburg suggested every part be redrawn before machining. redrawing helps you get the part in your head and reduces mistakes.
Pit falls?? to many to mention. but the best way to avoid them is learn the basics. And above all be patent. you will make lots of practice parts along the way. Even guys with experience sometimes have to make a part two or three times to get a good one or one they are happy with. I tell folks the home machine shop is akin to a College Engineering lab. No mistakes but lots of learning experiences.

If you want to do this READ. First of all get a hold of a copy of Army TC 9-524 available various places on the net as a PDF , get a copy of the Machinery's handbook and a good used older addition of a high school or college machining text book. And then get a book on building the real top fuel engines so you understand the full scale ones.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. and there will be many steps in your journey.
A good first step? Buy a good quality Micrometer That reads in in .0001" increments and learn to use it consistently. You will never be able to machine accurately unless you can measure accurately.

And folks here will be here to help and encourage.
Tin
 
True and then some.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to either Tin or Steve, but dont let them get you discouraged. If you want to build a top fuel v8, start with doing some research then do some basic drawings, throw them up on this forum, and see what people suggest. People need to start learning somewhere, and there has been lots of great things built before specialized tools and cnc.
 
DF: Steve has been there and built model engines with a blower. He has learned from the school of hard knocks and built his own cnc.
I am USAF trained an ran a cnc for a living for a while.
I did not even mention cnc as a requirement although handy for such a project.

In no way am I trying to discourage this guy. And people here learn at there own pace. Two years ago our own. Stan Shire knew virtually nothing about machining now he is building an engine every two weeks.

We all had to learn to walk before we run. we are talking marathon here.
No one is telling this guy that he is crazy or is attempting the impossible.
We are encouraging him to learn the basics before running forward.
Tin
 
Sorry Tin, like i said, i didnt mean any disrespect. I know that both of you and lots of other people on this forum are good at this stuff. Sometimes things dont come out the way they are meant on the internet, so i wanted to make sure that the OP wouldnt get discouraged, and that he would ask for help when he needs it.

Twinfire, what tools and machining skills do you have access too? I know you said you dont have any cad skills, but have you done any drafting/technical drawings before?

My suggestion is to pick a particular engine, figure out a size that is small enough to fit in your tools, but big enough that its easier to work with, then start looking at existing designs to figure out what kind of bore/stroke/displacement you would like to use. After that, grab some graph paper and start making some sketches. It would also be good to make a list of what you want to be like the original engine, and where you can deviate to make things a little easier. As an example, with my DFV, the real engine has one mechanical fuel injector per cylinder with an intake trumpet above the slide throttle. On my model, i used one rc engine carb per cylinder.
 
In no way am I trying to discourage this guy. And people here learn at there own pace.
We all had to learn to walk before we run. we are talking marathon here.
No one is telling this guy that he is crazy or is attempting the impossible.
We are encouraging him to learn the basics before running forward.

Amen! We are all here to help and be helped.
 
Sorry Tin, like i said, i didnt mean any disrespect.


He knows that.

When I started out long before I knew of forums and shows I jumped into a straight 8 engine build. Still not done to this day due to poor design and lack of skill. I stepped back, made a few engines that ran on air, and worked my way back to a V4 and then a V8. Does that sound like something Tin said? His advice is sound. Follow it and your chance at success in reaching the goal at a running top fuel miniature will increase.

I'm not saying that a first project of a V8 is not possible but when I started out I had to learn how to draw in 2D and then 3D. I had to learn how CNC machines worked so I could build one. I had to learn how CAM software worked so I could get my ideas onto the mill table and then learn how to run the machine without crashing it or breaking 15 dollar cutters. Then I had to learn all the ins and outs of making all the parts of an engine, what materials to use and what machining processes to use. I started at the ground floor with nothing. If you already possess some or all of these skills you might be able to skip some of the basic, entry level engines. Without knowing what someones skill level is or what they have built, I would offer the same advise as Tin.
 
What Tin and Steve have stated is just the 'tip of the iceberg' so to speak. There are many people that got into this hobby without a machining background but it takes extreme dedication and a very good mechanical knowledge to complete even some of the simplest I.C. engines. Some of the more seasoned veterans still have trouble with such things as valve sealing and carburetion.
If you have the desire then go for it but just be aware, it's a long journey.
gbritnell
 

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