Project of the month rules?

Discussion in 'Project Of The Month' started by NickG, Dec 3, 2009.

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  1. Dec 3, 2009 #1

    NickG

    NickG

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    So are there any rules or guidelines for nominations? Do the projects have to be complete, recent etc etc?

    And if there are any rules, who is going to police them? Or could it be written in some sort of IT script so people can't nominate themselves / nominate twice etc? Maybe the moderators should select a list of say 10 projects with voting buttons and exclude the project owners from voting on their own.

    I don't know - maybe a point this has raised is that it's too complex to have rules, so if somebody wants to vote for themselves, so-be-it.

    I can't reply to the nomination for december post so does the vote go on the first 3? Does that just mean you have to be quick off the mark then?

    Nick
     
  2. Dec 3, 2009 #2

    Cedge

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    Nick
    There are no specific rules in play for the EOM polls. It's not meant to be a contest, but a chance for members to give a bit of credit to and or honor a builder that has impressed them with their efforts. The admins have already heard the rumbling feedback, discussed the situation and came to the conclusion that placing restrictions on EOM submissions was not required.

    It was also discussed that if it ever became a friction point, the whole EOM effort could be eliminated rather than deal with people getting angry that their choices were not selected. The consensus was that the feature was popular enough to maintain as long as it doesn't create conflict. I'd really rather not see a popular part of the board become extinct just because we can't all behave in an adult fashion. I suspect I'm not the only one.

    While it might a bit awkward, placing oneself in nomination isn't prohibited.... but it could be easily seen as... well.... tacky...(grin)

    If you have a favorite, submit it, but don't expect the rest of the board to await your submission before they add their own.

    Submissions from any individual are welcome..... and no.... it's not fair to say you can't make a submission every month, although making more than one per cycle might be a bit over the top.

    If you want to add a project to the polling, get it in early.

    A lot of credit is due to those of you who brought up the subject. It's an indicator that you truly support this board and those who contribute posts to make it all work. Truth being told, the board has gotten large enough that I have a hard time getting around to track all the projects. The fact that you guys manage to do is proof that this place is filling a real need. Keep the passion flowing but let's not get into a red zone situation over something meant only to be fun.

    Steve
    Who tried and failed to withdraw his own engine from EOM consideration.
     
  3. Dec 3, 2009 #3

    Metal Butcher

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    The current nomination system seems to be becoming out dated due to the growth of the forum. Rather than expecting the creation of rules that need enforcing by the over burdened administrators. I propose a simple solution that could work well. Rather than deal with the problems that conflict can cause by eliminating "Project of the month", the administrators could simply post their individual choices for the general membership to vote on. Administrators already have a place of honor on the forum and would be exempt. One nominee per administrator, with no duplicate nominations. Nominations would of course be on a voluntarily basis. No rules would apply to their choice of a nominee, Period. This nominee thread would of course be closed to any posting by the general membership. And then the members would simply place their vote.

    The honor of ones project pictured at the top of the home page on HMEM has been an inspiration to me, and other members I'm sure. I for one would hate to see it eliminated.

    EDIT; The nominations would be provided by Administation and that of course includes all our Moderators.

    IMHO

    -MB
     
  4. Dec 3, 2009 #4

    LADmachining

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    "The nominations would be provided by Administation and that of course includes all our Moderators."
    -MB

    Interesting you should say this, as I thought that this was how the nomination process worked when I first joined the site.....

    Anthony
     
  5. Dec 3, 2009 #5

    Metal Butcher

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    Hi Anthony. I am not sure if that's how it was. I joined about a year ago.
    And I have never been at the right place or the right time to place a nomination. This is somewhat frustrating, as its over with before you find out it even began. It seems that very few members vote, and this could be the reason why.

    -MB
     
  6. Dec 3, 2009 #6

    mklotz

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    Centralizing candidate selection in the admins would also help to get rid of the apples-oranges problems we've seen in the past.

    A well-executed newbie engine run against a masterpiece from one of our top craftsmen just isn't sensible. Both engines deserve recognition but the newbie is overwhelmed.
    Similarly with steam and IC engines. They're a different breed and putting them up against each other becomes a test of how many steam or gas aficionados are resident.
     
  7. Dec 3, 2009 #7

    Metal Butcher

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    Marv, that's exactly the way I see it! I believe this (centralizing) would come as close as possible to giving a broader cross section of the members an opportunity to have there projects voted on. With twelve months in a year all of the different categories of home shop built engines could be easily covered. No group wold be left out or face unfair grouping. ;)

    -MB
     
  8. Dec 3, 2009 #8

    bearcar1

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    You are absolutely correct MK. Granted, all of the nominations in the past have been exceptional, however, as you say, a newcomers simple oscillator that has been painstakingly crafted and finished never seems to hold water against some of the more elegant and complex engines that some members seem to be able to generate. I'd like to see some sort of plan used as a trial that pits "apples to apples" so to speak. The fact of the matter that roughly only about 100 members out of about 1800 or so will most likely never change. That fact alone is very disturbing in and of itself as well.

    Here is a general question/suggestion for the powers that be.
    How about setting up a rotational schedule in regards to types of engines ei: steam, IC, wobbler/oscillators, etc, that are being voted upon each month. Albeit, this month could be steam, three nominations of steam engines gets selected. Next month, three IC engines get selected for the voter's choices, and so on. This would at the very least level the playing field for those of us who are not as far up on the learning curve as some folks. ::)

    Just something for the head gurus to moll over in their spare time. (yeah right) Now maybe we should go portal to portal getting the word out to people to cast their votes in whatever type of system that gets utilized.

    BC1
    Jim
     
  9. Dec 3, 2009 #9

    Twmaster

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    I have to agree with the points made above. Keep apples with apples. Last month was a good example. It pitted Black85vette's nice EZ-built engine against two other far more complex engines. It's not a surprise the EZ engine didn't win.

    Note: This is not a dig at anybody. I look at every engine build ongoing here. All of you who take the time to show your handiwork have my respect and admiration.

    Lastly, Nominating one's self should not be allowed. Tacky IMHO.
     
  10. Dec 4, 2009 #10

    NickG

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    I think I agree with what all of you are saying here. Each post has some good points in it, we may be forgetting the fact that it was changed to project of the month too, not engine of the month. So I think it'd be hard to devise things into categories - there would be too many. People should take everything into consideration when voting.

    Another thought - maybe the admin should collectively decide on the winner. That way the vote is always constant and you know everything will be considered. I do believe that i.c. engines generally attract more attention than compressed air engines.

    Nick
     
  11. Dec 4, 2009 #11

    Cedge

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    As I recall, that first EOM event was set up by Wes and he chose three current projects to get the ball rolling. After that he sought nominations from the members. I, for one, don't wish to see that change. As Admins and moderators, we work mostly behind the scenes to keep things running as smoothly as possible. If we do our job properly, we are almost never seen in action, unless there are problems requiring us to take a more publicly active role. The rest of the time, I consider myself to be just another member of the clan.

    As such, I don't want to choose who gets nominated and I'm certainly not willing to make the choice as to who is selected for EOM. That is a shared responsibility among all members and one that should be just that.... shared.

    Funny thing.... I don't look at nominees for the bling or complexity as much as I look at the skills of the builder and how far he/she is pushing themselves toward the ragged edges of their abilities. Zeeprogrammer is a prime example. One of his early projects was nominated and while it did not win that month, he garnered a fair percentage of votes. The engine wasn't highly complex and you could see evidence of his inexperience. What you also saw was that he was way out there on the end of his rope and and still swinging hard.

    I voted for his engine over a much more talented builder who didn't have to try anywhere near as hard as Carl was trying. I think Zee was shocked to be nominated but he'd earned it. It seems to have been huge a boost to his confidence as he's continued to work on the very edge of his ever growing talents. I can think of no better reward than that.

    Steve
     
  12. Dec 4, 2009 #12

    rleete

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    Well said.
     
  13. Dec 4, 2009 #13

    cobra428

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    Hi All,
    I have to put in my 2 cents worth. Someone said it before steam vers IC vers Stirling. Beginner vers intermidiate vers Expert. I know this will sound crazy and maybe a lot of work for the moderaters and admin....I don't know.
    In the model airplane world to which I am well familiar with, it is all broken into catagorys novice, intermediate and expert. There are experts playing novice just to have their "name in lights". I don't think this is the situation here. We are a small group and we all know pretty much the ability of others and who is pushing the edge and who is just having fun, well which we all are, in are own way. There is no $$$$$ in this, so what the heck is all the comosion about. The problem arises that an expert decides to build a stirling and only 1 novice builds a stirling that month...what now.
    Well the expert wins expert stirling catagory novice wins novice catagory stirling. Nobody has an IC to show in any catgory.....no IC winner that month. The next thing there is a posibility of 9 winners that month or just 1 or just none. Can you do a looping power point with subtitle in the winner window? I don't know (pretty stupid ain't I). If you can than loop the winners for a min. then go on to the next winner. Now who gets to pigeon hole who is the expert class, novice etc. We got a giant can of worms happening. There isn't an engine a day happening here. Every month I see 2 or 3 engines finished. Lets just have fun folks if a novice see's a nice novice eng they woud like to build they will vote for it. Then again you see GB's 305 of course he will win, everybody know what went into building it. I vote for leaving things alone but you can't nominate yourself only someone else. Just think if all the actors in Hollywood could nominate themself for an Oscar. They would all have Oscars!

    Off the soap box now. I love this forum and I've seen things like this, disband a perfectly good model airplane club. To lazy to spell and grammer check now so forgive me

    Tony
     
  14. Dec 4, 2009 #14

    90LX_Notch

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    I say leave it as is. I was (still am) a newbie when my third engine was nominated. I was blown away to even be nominated. I knew I wouldn't win; however, it was such a thrill everyday to log in and watch the votes. At one point it was pretty close and I thought I just might win. It does inspire you to push harder and pay more attention to detail. I started my fourth engine in June (Tiny @ 1/4 scale) and have faithfully made everything to the plans @ 1/4 scale except for the rod diameter on the piston. (I'd rather replace the crank pin then remake a bent rod/piston at this scale). I would have never even attempted this scale it if it weren't for the nomination.

    Also, what an honor it is to have been nominated by Steve Huck. He had just won his class at NAMES when he nominated me. That someone of his talent recognised my little engine; that meant more to me then anything.

    So, the point I am trying to make is that just to be nominated is a great honor for a newbie. We know we won't win, but anytime that you are recognised by your peers for your work, that is in of itself, a great accomplishment.
     
  15. Dec 4, 2009 #15

    1Kenny

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    I have nominated a guy that built his first engine but he didn't make the three for a vote. He told me later he was very happy someone noticed his work. I think it surprised him because I didn't make any comments in his build post. I put him in because he worked on the edge of his limits and achieved great results. To me, and I hope him, he still won. At the same time I have voted for engines of all types. Even voting for engines that didn't win that month but I liked them.

    I like the system of members nominating the build and voting for the winner. To me, categories can stop people from trying to do better. I agree with what Tony said about the more experienced builder will drop to a lower level to achieve stardom and overall that will discourage the newer builders.

    We have a good culture here that is kind, open, helpfull, encouraging and respectfull. That is what I enjoy the most.

    That is my opinion,


    Kenny
     
  16. Dec 4, 2009 #16

    Cedge

    Cedge

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    I can't really tell you how good it is to hear that others are also looking beyond pretty paint and shiny polished metal. Both can disguise a mediocrity. I know because I've been known to use the same trick when something went pear shaped...LOL. Draw the eye away from a mistake and it becomes invisible to most people.

    POM was conceived as a way to recognize and encourage builders who are really trying to do their best work. Since individual skill levels vary, so does the definition of "best" effort. If your vote is determined by prettiest engine, shiniest engine, complexity or simple loyalty to a friend, then you've missed the whole premise of the thing. As Cobra428 said.... there are no monetary benefits to the event and to my mind, no losers on any level. A nomination is quite rightly to be considered an honor and a much deserved acknowledgment of ones efforts.

    Steve
     
  17. Dec 4, 2009 #17

    cobra428

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    90LX_Notch , 1Kenny,Cedge
    You know I'm with you on this. A funny story, I belong to the Long Island Metal Worker Society. There are guys in there that do metal art, forging, I guess what I'm trying to say is it a very diverse group. I went to the first meeting and I brought along a few of my engines. This gentleman walks up to me and says wow, those are very nice, what kind of machines do you have? Looking at their web site every body had briges and hardiges and with my head down I said I have a HF 8x12 lathe and a HF bench mill, he chuckled but didn't walk away while the engines where running. I find out latter that he was a Swiss watch maker. The next meeting I went to I brought a few more engines. The second I walk in the door he came running up to me and says what did you bring well I said this and that.....He says to me you build some of the most beautiful engines the best I've seen. I was happier than a pig in....I thought he was making fun of me at the last meeting. He makes some of the most beautiful clocks I ever saw. Everything from scratch down to the screws and gears. So a compliment from him really means something to me. That's the glory in the hobby!
    Tony
     
  18. Dec 4, 2009 #18

    Deanofid

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    90LX-Notch makes a very good point, in telling how one might feel just to be nominated by his peers. There are varying skill levels, yes, and the scope of some of the builds here will seem out of this world to some, and very do-able by others. Most of us are able to discern earnest effort, and I think the list of prior nominees in months past bears this out. More advanced builders know what it was like when they first started at this avocation, and those yet gaining experience know what they like, even if they don't yet know how to proceed with building it.

    Hopefully, there could be just a few simple guidelines for determining finalists for the month's laurel wreath, though;

    Nominating one's self seems shamelessly self serving. To think that a person could have "Nominee" by their name in their posts simply by putting their own name forward taints the whole process and cheapens the notion of being a nominee for those that have come by it through the suggestion of others.

    Nominating more than one person limits the entire process to the whim or prejudice of that one person, if they should choose to enter three names at the first request for nominees. Let one person choose whom he/she feels is deserving by whatever criteria they see as noteworthy, but choose only one at a time, and let others proceed in a similar manner.

    It seems that the engine should have been presented as a build here on the forum. Otherwise, what is to keep a flood of old shelf sitters from popping up the first of every month, just hoping for an extra pat on the back for work done long past?

    I do hope the basic process doesn't change. Any person nominated by another has received a fine compliment.

    Dean
     
  19. Dec 4, 2009 #19

    gmac

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    Cedge's comments strike the heart of the matter for me (as a newbie);

    "Funny thing.... I don't look at nominees for the bling or complexity as much as I look at the skills of the builder and how far he/she is pushing themselves toward the ragged edges of their abilities. Zeeprogrammer is a prime example. One of his early projects was nominated and while it did not win that month, he garnered a fair percentage of votes. The engine wasn't highly complex and you could see evidence of his inexperience. What you also saw was that he was way out there on the end of his rope and and still swinging hard.

    I voted for his engine over a much more talented builder who didn't have to try anywhere near as hard as Carl was trying. I think Zee was shocked to be nominated but he'd earned it. It seems to have been huge a boost to his confidence as he's continued to work on the very edge of his ever growing talents. I can think of no better reward than that
    ."

    If anything I choose a project that taught me a great deal, and showed the builder as one willing to share his learning process. Based on this I'm not convinced that creating novice/expert entries or by category entries will affect my vote. One mistake I made early in my entry to this hobby - but corrected quickly - was ignoring certain types of engines or non-engines because I wasn't interested in them. I soon found out there was a lot of "learning" that could be done by studying those "non-interesting engines". Example - I don't have a natural interest in marine engines but have discovered a mountain of learning buried in construction articles on this class of engines.

    I'd suggest we just post, so everyone is aware, a "gentleman's agreement" that a person doesn't nominate themselves, there are no categories and perhaps occasionally the admin's select a month in which it's novice only or expert only - otherwise it's just crowd's favorite based on whatever criteria the person deems to use.

    Most importantly I hope the person that nominated themselves (I chose to believe innocently) and touched off this discussion is NOT frightened off. I've found this forum to be casual, friendly and having the goal of helping others.

    Let's resume regular programing :big:

    Garry
     
  20. Dec 4, 2009 #20

    NickG

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    I am glad to hear what Steve is saying, and I think some of the projects that have won / been nominated echo that.

    The only think I'm a bit dubious about is that there is no set time when nominations are asked for and it's basically whom ever is on the internet at the time that gets to nominate as the first three are chosen for the vote. I couldn't even leave my suggestion in the thread without starting a new one as the reply function had gone.

    Nick
     

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