powder coat vs. paint ?

[bmuss51]

as so of you have seen in my past posts that i have finished a new holland hit-miss. and i thought i would run it and get out all the bugs before i paint the engine.and at this time i have approx. 6-8 hr of run time on the engine and i feel it's now due for some color. but which type of paint job is up in the air right now because i don't know which paint type to use.
on power coat i hear it is more durable like being more chip resistant than auto paint or a regular enamel(hardware store type). but the down side is the powder coat the way i hear if it is chipped from handling or what ever, that it can't be touched_up as another type of paint can. and as for this engine i do plan to do two differant things with it. like i want to use it hooked up to an ice cream freezer and also have it for show. so it might get handled more frequent than just a show piece.
so from the above i hope you can see my questioning which type of paint. and as for the price i found that i can get it power coated for approx the same price as i would have to spend on auto paint and all the related things. like thinner, hardener and the paint that i would have to get color matched because of new holland having a very diff. type of reddish maroon towards Burgundy. or should i just get the color close as i can from an sample car chip and save the color match fee.
there is two people that sell finished new holland's that i know of. and both get them power coated at the same place which is only 6 mi. from me. so this is helping to confuse me, like fallow what is done or go my own path.

 

[Metal Butcher]

My suggestion would be to use inexpensive auto lacquer in a spray can. Finding an exact match might not be possible. However, their are a lot maroon colors that were used on cars.

Advantages of spray lacquer:

1) very durable, I have yet to chip motor.

2) very inexpensive. usually $1 to $6.

3) readily available. auto parts stores and chain stores everywhere.

4) If something does go wrong like a flaw, chip, or you don't like the color after all, Laquer thinner will easily wash away the finish along with your problem.

5) The parts can be oiled, handled, and assembled with no adverse effects on the following day.

Powder coat in this application is not even remotely necessary. This of course is simply my opinion, and as opinions go you can take them or leave them. No matter what your decision is it will always be the right one.

Edit: Don't use enamel under any circumstances, it will instantly show wear marks from handling as it really takes about a year to dry fully. Baking will make the finish somewhat brittle unless you use the type that should be baked. I absolutely refuse to use it since it offers no advantages over lacquer.

-MB

 

[cobra428]

Bmuss51,
I am a big fan of Krylon, it's much like lacquer....easy to spray, no guns to clean up and it dries fast (put on a coat of primer first). Those where my impatient days (can't wait for the paint to dry). If you want a more durable paint try Rustolium they say 24hrs. to dry but it's more like 48~72. But a good and strong finish.
Tony

 

[dean0]

I don't know much about engines but I have had more than a few motorcycle frames/parts powder coated over the years.
So a couple of things not already mentioned

Durability overall is usually better than paint but results can differ between powder coaters.I've had some jobs done that were better than others . Durability and finish are very dependent on preparation, primers products and the people doing the job .

Also Powdercoating is a hell of lot more tricky to strip off should you ever need too. But then again I have used it successfully as a base coat for a painted finish.

 

[PTsideshow]

As for powder coating, the prep is as important if not more important than for paint. You now have a lot of color choices in powder coat. And the rattle can choices and styles have improved. Generally a well down powder coat is better at holding up to use.

Of course that goes with a bunch of caveats, Don't whack on parts with a hammer, Don't use a flame or torch to loosen up bolts or tight parts. don't drop something on it when it really cold out. And Never,never plan on stripping it and redoing the color.

Of course most don't under stand that powder coating is an electrostatic coating process. Were a powdered plastic is attracted to the part by a charge. Then it is heated depending on the type 375' to 500'F to set the plastic. Melted to flow into a even coat,a well done prep job. has the item with a good tooth so it will hold onto the plastic coating.

Any rust, dirt, oil, grease and moisture on the item will still be under the item when the powdered plastic is baked, or heated with the infrared lamps/heaters. Oxidation will continue under the powder coating, and reveal it self at a later date. As will all of the above be a cause of powder coat failure at some point.

Prep is as important for paint. But to clear up a common mistake, paint doesn't dry! The vehicle that carries the pigment, and any other chemicals has to evaporate the solvent base. Now the 48 to 72 hours to USE mentioned on the labels is the time it takes the solvent to dissipate and the pigments,dryers and finishes to harden back into a solid shell/covering.

It is hard on the outside, and still soft and liquid underneath. This also shows the need for the time lags between coats and the the time to flash the solvents off and harden. This is true of all paints whether water,oil, two part or other based carries.

So depending on what your plans are for use and in the future better prep on the pieces are more important than the top coat. Whether it is a car, toy, or wood structure.

You may want to check out a larger air brush or small touch up gun for painting smaller items. Is better than a full size gun.
glen

 

[bmuss51]

as some have mentioned about canned spray paints which i have used alot in the past. i have not had good results touching up a blem, scratch, chip or what ever you want to call it with out having to completely redoing the paint job. so i will not even consider off the shelf spray paint for this project.
as for the power coat i was told that the place i'm thinking of preheats the product and soaks it for an hour before they coat it. and i was told that the oil and other things on or in the casting would be cooked off before they paint. and if i remember right the temp is 150 degrees. but the other thing i was told is that the powder coat thickness is 6-10 mil. and i'm thinking that is way to thick compaired to an auto paint which might be ?able as to the thickness with the primer and then a finial color coat and then maybe a clear over top.

 

[oldiron64]

Two things about powder coating that would make me shy away from it for models

1 Faraday cage effect. Because of the electrostatic charge the powder does not get attracted into sharp corners and will show light spots.

2 Creep back. Powder will not stay on a sharp corner and will also show a light spot.

Powder coating needs 2-4 mill of thicknes to cover correctly any more than that is a waste of material.
I worked at a coating operation for awhile and the model parts I tried sent me right back to painting

Harold

 

[David Morrow]

One thing that has not been mentioned and that is anodizing. I bought the power supply and basic supplies to do this and although I've not fully immersed myself in it, I quite like the results. A bit more complicated that rattle cans - maybe similar to powder coating in technical issue, but you can get some very nice results. Here is a small desk clock that I designed, built and anodized :

 

[bmuss51]

OK, with all your reply's i'm really starting to lean towards auto type poly. and one of the main reasons is that power is getting to thick along with all the problems it has. like not going into corners right, hard to touch up if it can be done, and sense i ran it before paint their might be some oil in the cast iron now that will embed under the powder and cause problems down the road by peeling off.

now i'm on to the next challenge of finishing of the wood rails that the motor will be setting on. and now to go into details of this problem. is that i have a friend that works at a kitchen cabinet shop. which offered to finish the wood off natural(or slight stain) for me at no cost. but they use an enamel clear with hardener in it. and i'm thinking there might be problems of oil being around the wood and ruining the finish down the road. or would this be alright?
the other option i have is to get him to prep the wood and get it ready for the clear. but then use an auto poly to go over the wood which should be a better finish than the enamel, but whats the groups thoughts?

 

[PTsideshow]

but they use an enamel clear with hardener in it.

Well then it is a new age enamel/catalyst hardening by means of a chemical reaction. Not the ole flashing off of the solvent vehicle.

You said a cabinet shop, that means there would be cooking oil splashed about. I'm sure if the wood is prepped and finished with the finished being properly set up. there wouldn't be a problem with oil dripped or spilled and then wiped up.

You can always ask them to do a scrap piece coated so you could stand it in a shallow plate of oil for a week and see what effect the oil has on the finish. Secondly find out what the enamel uses as abase or thinner.
glen

 

[Metal Butcher]

Wood is a very unstable material. It's constantly changing dimensionally along with humidity and temperature. Small fractures in the surface of the finish will admit oil and moisture.

After nearly a life time of trials the only product that I will use, or recommend, is Tru-Oil gun stock finish.

I apply it using my finger, a piece of paper towel, or steel wool. I never brush or spray. These different application methods give a finish that ranges from matte to glossy.

Once you try this simple, inexpensive, and effective wood finish you will understand why use it exclusively.

http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/wood_index.asp?categoryID=5&subcat=11

All of the wood bases in this link were finished with Tru-Oil. Note the base on the Modified Oscillating Wedge, The finish was applied with a brush. A method I no-longer use. I prefer a hand rubbed method using my finger or an aplicator that fills and seals the pores in the wood.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4707.0

-MB

 

[shred]

2nd MB's suggestions-- Rifles are a classic example of 'oily metal next to nice wood'. Brownells has several good videos on metal finishing and I've used some of their baking lacquer to good effect. I've heard the 'xyz-kote's are good too and very tough, but color selections are limited with both and most really want an abrasive-blasted finish to stick to.

 

[putputman]

This might sound quite primitive but I have used this process many times and am satisfied with the results.

I boil the steel and cast iron parts in plain water. (I have not painted aluminum yet but it would clean as well). I purchased a set of stainless steel pots at Wally World for about $20.00. I use the largest pot on a LP turkey cooker furnace. Bring the parts up to a hard boil for several minute. This seems to cook the oils out of the tapped holes, cast iron and everything. When I take the parts out of the boiling water, they dry instantly. You must prime them ASAP as the clean metal will rust quite fast.

I use Rust-Olium primer & paint, but any paint process should work as well once the parts are clean.

 

[Metal Butcher]

This might sound quite primitive but I have used this process many times and am satisfied with the results.

I boil the steel and cast iron parts in plain water. (I have not painted aluminum yet but it would clean as well). I purchased a set of stainless steel pots at Wally World for about $20.00. I use the largest pot on a LP turkey cooker furnace. Bring the parts up to a hard boil for several minute. This seems to cook the oils out of the tapped holes, cast iron and everything. When I take the parts out of the boiling water, they dry instantly. You must prime them ASAP as the clean metal will rust quite fast.

I use Rust-Olium primer & paint, but any paint process should work as well once the parts are clean.

Amazing! That's exactly what I do! Also, many of the steel parts that won't be painted are immediately transferred to a hot pot full of parkerizing solution. This imparts a rust proof phosphate coating used by our military on firearms, etc.

Very important, to whom it may concern: Make sure "Honey" isn't home when expanding the perimeter of your shop to include HER kitchen! ;D

-MB

 

[bmuss51]

metal butcher:
what is ment by parkerizing and what does the finish look like?
the reason i'm asking is that the flywheel has an exposed cast iron surface that i don't want to rust and i was thinking of putting a clear coat over it. but that would probably look poor but hold up good keeping it from rust. and i;m interested in finding out more on the cook off and parkerizing.
i did find a product called tc2 that i had put on the flywheel about 8 mos ago and it shows no sign of rust yet. but i don't know how that will react with a painted surface next to it. and because of the way the surface is using the tc2 i'm ?ing if i can get the surface to hold paint cleaned with a thinner.
next wk i plan to get the auto paint setup and i thought i saw some place that new holland in the past had used Sherwood Williams paint and now I'm wondering if anybody has the code # ?

 

[Metal Butcher]

metal butcher:
what is ment by parkerizing and what does the finish look like?
the reason i'm asking is that the flywheel has an exposed cast iron surface that i don't want to rust and i was thinking of putting a clear coat over it. but that would probably look poor but hold up good keeping it from rust. and i;m interested in finding out more on the cook off and parkerizing.
i did find a product called tc2 that i had put on the flywheel about 8 mos ago and it shows no sign of rust yet. but i don't know how that will react with a painted surface next to it. and because of the way the surface is using the tc2 i'm ?ing if i can get the surface to hold paint cleaned with a thinner.
next wk i plan to get the auto paint setup and i thought i saw some place that new holland in the past had used Sherwood Williams paint and now I'm wondering if anybody has the code # ?

The link below will give all the information that you need to understand this very simple process. I bought a quart bottle of the concentrate many years ago. I add about a quart of water to 1 oz. of the concentrate. The only other needs are a pair of stainless steel tongs and 2 stainless cooking pots. After the used solution cools to room temperature I pour it into a separate plastic bottle for future re-use.

Here's a link that shows one of my motors with parkerized side frames and crank discs:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Elmer...ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

Below link info says it all:

http://www.parkerizingkits.com/html/parkerizing_faqs.html

I didn't know that it is this readily available!

http://grizzly.com/products/Zinc-Phosphate-Parkerizing-Solution-Concentrate-1-Pint/H9457

OH! I forgot to mention that I also use it to prepare steel that will be painted. Usually one or two minutes in the hot solution is all it takes. The quick thin coating prevent rust under the finish and creates a very good griping surface for a painted top coat.

I call this stuff a coating, but its really a chemical transformation of the metals surface. Once you try your hand at this neat and simple process you will probably get hooked!

-MB

 

[bmuss51]

metal butcher:
you mentioned parkerizing and that the solution is heated , but to what temp. and how can you tell if or when it is ready to pull out? and another ? being: can i put all the nuts and bolts in the solution at one time or do they have to be suppended to get access to the complete surface for the entire time in or would shake the pot be good enough?

i have some bolts and nuts that i want to paint black,but on stock bolts they come already plated and i have never had good luck with paint sticking to them . or at least it can be scratched off very easily. so from what was said about parkerizing, i'm wondering if i would do the parkerizing thing first and then paint the nuts and bolts if the paint would stick better. and on things like this i had always used shack the can type of krylon. or would dip into a thinned rustoleum be a better choice? and if dipping would be a better choice, what would be a good thinning ratio be?

 

[Metal Butcher]

metal butcher:
you mentioned parkerizing and that the solution is heated , but to what temp. and how can you tell if or when it is ready to pull out? and another ? being: can i put all the nuts and bolts in the solution at one time or do they have to be suppended to get access to the complete surface for the entire time in or would shake the pot be good enough?

i have some bolts and nuts that i want to paint black,but on stock bolts they come already plated and i have never had good luck with paint sticking to them . or at least it can be scratched off very easily. so from what was said about parkerizing, i'm wondering if i would do the parkerizing thing first and then paint the nuts and bolts if the paint would stick better. and on things like this i had always used shack the can type of krylon. or would dip into a thinned rustoleum be a better choice? and if dipping would be a better choice, what would be a good thinning ratio be?

The recommended temperature will be listed on the container or instruction sheet. I think its 180 degrees. I don't use a thermometer, when I see fine bubbles coming off the bottom of the pan the heat is tuned off and the part(s) immersed. The process takes between 5 to 20 minutes more of less depending on how thick and dark you like. You should use wire suspension to avoid the possibility of unevenness caused by contact with the pan. With small parts that can't be suspended I usually just roll them around a few times with a piece of wire.

This is a chemical process that alters the surface of steel and iron.
I don't think you can parkerize a plated nut or bolt. It may also cause a dangerous chemical reaction or release a toxic gas! Don't try it with out consulting the manufacturer!

I can't help with any suggestion about paint dipping. I tried it once and ended up with runs and heavy areas. The experiment was a total failure. If the paint chipping is caused by a wrench, then there is no paint finish that will hold up to that type or pressure. I like to use cap screws and button head screws for this very reason, plus I like the way they look. The hex wrench goes inside the head of these types of bolts. This not only prevents any noticeable marks on the hardware, but also protects the surrounding paint finished or metal finished surfaces from assembly damage.

-MB

 

[PTsideshow]

To remove the plating off of items if you are referring to the galvanized coating. Is Acetic Acid CH3COOH or good ole household vinegar. Depending on the strength of the solution from 3% to 7% for the common varieties or brands. Place the nuts,bolts or items in a plastic container to cover said items and wait anywhere from a couple hours to a couple days. Again depending on the thickness of the plating,coating and the strength of the vinegar.

There are a number of chemical names used in processing in industry.
Ethanoic acid
Vinegar acid
Methane carboxylic acid
glacial acetic acid.

There are strength levels from 10% to 80% solution DOT 2789 placard
and then the real nasty stuff 80% solution DOT 2790 placard

When the coating is removed neutralize in Baking soda wash and rinse then dry with a towel. Then paint.

Dip painting is best done for hard to coat items like wire screens, baskets or other items that will not be required to have a blemish free finish.
You would be better of even with a cheap air brush to prime and coat the items.

No matter how you thin it or how you bring it out of the bath/dip you will get directional flow and drips and sags.
;D
glen

 

[bmuss51]

Glen:
i like your thoughts on roughing up the surface for painting. but which type of vinegar is the best to use. like white or regular?

also would a product like clr or a drain opener work or even a product called lime-away? the reason i mentioned lime-away is because where i worked as a tool maker we used lime-away to clean off steel after an edm cut to get rid of the sludge. and on our holding fixtures and clamps we used lime-away to clean the stainless steel.