Milling Vice----Help

[Brian Rupnow]

I am gathering up accesories in anticipation of my new milling machine which is to be delivered at the end of this month. I have ran into a snag. I thought that since eventually I would need to buy a rotary table/indexing head, I would purchase it now, and just get a very plain milling vice and mount it to the top of my rotary table. This would allow me to buy a relatively inexpensive vice with a fixed (non rotating base). --------I would simply mount it to the top of the rotary table and this would in effect give me a milling vice with a rotating base. Now I am wondering if this was a mistake. The fixed base vice that I purchased turns out to be a friggin' drill press vice!!!! Now I am seeing that most of the better milling vices that are sold come with a rotary base. It seems to me that it would be rather self defeating to mount a vice with a swivel base onto a rotary table!! So---What do I do??? I am straining my budget here, so I don't want to buy 2 vices, one with a rotary base to use by itself and one with a fixed base to mount on my rotary table. The drill press vice can be returned ---thats not really an issue. (I only paid $46.00 for it anyways). Was my initial idea of using a fixed base vice on top of my rotary table a bad idea, or is that acceptable? Can I buy a reasonable quality fixed base drill press vice for less than $150.00??? Busy Bee Tools (where I have been buying all my stuff has a 2 3/4" low profile milling vice for about $65.00 but it seems awfully small. http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?&NETID=0808140615081927571&NTITEM=B2715 I really need a senior member with good experience to chime in here and help me out, please.---Brian

 

[Tin Falcon]

Brian:
Mounting a vice on top of a rotary table is probably not the best Idea for every day normal use. For one thing most built for the home shop mills the distance between the table and the spindle is limited you start stacking stuff you run out of room quick.
in my humble shop I find I use just a straight not rotary non angle vice most of the time. And I have my rotary table mounted next to the vice with a 4 jaw chuck on it. Keep in mind most rotary table work is on round stuff .
The precision vice you show the link to would work very well on a seig x-2. Keep in mind if they say precision it usually means light cuts or grinding but on an x-2 that is OK that mill is not for hogging or mass production.
As far as keys in the bottom of the vise that you asked about in another thread they are nice and save time but not a necessity. They are there to save time tramming in the vise when you put it on the mill.
Hope this helps
Tin

 

[chuck foster]

hi brian
i can't help much on the vise issue but as tin said the keys on the bottom of the vise are just a quick and dirty means to get you vise close to parallel on your mill, you will still have to use a dial test indicator to get it dead on .

the other thing i can tell you (from personal experience) is stay away from this vise !!!
http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?&NETID=0942490615081927647&NTITEM=B2251

i have had 2 of them in the last year and one broke right in two while clamping a piece of wood in it (yes i said wood).
the second vise was so out of square, the jaws were not parallel and the swivel base would swivel..........if you hit it with
a big hammer.

i took the first vise back to them and i was told that i tightened the vise too much and that is why it broke. the second vise they
told me i must have dropped it to get it that messed up.
don't get me wrong i still shop there but now everything i buy is taken out of the box and i give it a good look before i buy it.

hope this help
chuck

 

[GailInNM]

Brian,
The keys in the base of the vice are a non-issue to me. They worked well where setting the vice parallel to the table travel within 0.005 to 0.010 inch per foot was close enough. For a lot of commercial work this is close enough, but for small parts that engine builders make that is not close enough so the vice will have to be dialed in with an indicator much closer.

To me, the vice is the most important accessory for the milll that you will ever use. It will be used for most of your operations. The biggest item to successful milling is rigidity. For this reason I do not like swivel bases. They introduce one more stage between the milling table and the work piece. Every stage reduces the rigidity. If the vice has ground sides that are perpendicular to the jaws, then setting the vice at an angle on the table with a machinist protractor is almost as easy as rotating it on the swivel base. If it does not have ground sides, then it is still not much more work to set it up by clamping a square in the jaws and setting the square with the protractor.

Vice height is another consideration. With the swivel base you lose some spindle to workpiece distance. Not important for most operations, but it can be important when reaming a hole after drilling it and larger reamers get quite long quickly as size increases. Same thing can happen if using a drill chuck holding a tapping guide that supports a tapping handle with a long tap in it. It is upsetting how quickly we can run out of room under the spindle.

I like the Kurt style of vice, where the jaw exerts a downward pressure on the work as you clamp. It does not completely eliminate the jaw lift, but it does reduce it enough that most of the time you don't have to hammer the workpiece down as you tighten it. The screwless vices also exert a downward pressure so they work well also. They take a little longer to change from one width to another as they have a limited clamping range for each setting, but are less expensive for the degree of precision obtained.

One other thing I like about the Kurt style is the ability to remove the hard jaw insert and bolt them to the opposite end of either or both of the fixed and moving jaw mounting parts to extend the clamping range for thin workpieces. Both ends of the jaw mounts are tapped to hold the hard jaws. I have two mills. My small one has a 3 inch vice on it, and with the jaws on the outside I can clamp up to 8 inches wide, which is more than the Y travel of the mill. This lets me square up larger plates like engine bases. I have a 4 inch Chick vice on by Bridgeport sized mill. It has a variety of options about jaw placement by bolting end pieces to different faces of the jaws and lets me cover workpieces from zero to 15 inches wide. Since the machine only has 12 inches of Y travel this is more than enough for anything I can do on the machine. Most people use a 6 inch vice on this size machine, but I like the 4 inch vice better and have not found it to be a limitation.

Mostly I build small to medium size toys, so the 3 inch vice will take care of most everything I do. I went with the 4 inch vice on the larger machine mostly because of the increased rigidity, although I do use the increased size on occasion. For long parts, I have on occasion let the part hang out of the vice and clamped the overhanging end of the part to the table using an improvised spacer from the part to the table and a strap clamp.

I hope this has not confused you even more. Remember rigidity and flexability.

 

[Mcgyver]

I would simply mount it to the top of the rotary table and this would in effect give me a milling vice with a rotating base. Now I am wondering if this was a mistake. The fixed base vice that I purchased turns out to be a friggin' drill press vice!!!! Now I am seeing that most of the better milling vices that are sold come with a rotary base.

Brian, now you've got me doing it - i'll help with vises but for your vices,you're on your own ;D

the best milling vises do not have a rotating base. You'll go a decade without ever needing the rotating base, forget it. Yes there are examples of it being used but they're rare....in fact the whole rotating base thing is considered a bit of joke among most experienced guys. Its not that you never need to mill angles, just that you almost never need to mill them on the top of something held in the vise - If you ever do set the vise and to the table with a protractor.. Meanwhile the rotating base consumes daylight and is a source of error.

get a good vise like a Kurt. Don't get a drill press vise and don't get a grinding vise (which I see pics of being used in mills all the time, but don’t they lack the holding power for milling )

once the mill is trammed up, the vise is the foundation of accuracy, buy junk and you'll always be fighting the thing to avoid making junk....buy a good one and its like a good reliable partner toward good workmanship

 

[mklotz]

I've been amateur machining for thirty years or more and never had need of a rotary vise base.

Everything I've done that could have been done with a rotary base was done by angled setups in the (fixed) vise or by clamping directly to the table or to one of several general purpose fixtures that I've designed and built.

As has been stated, putting the vise on a rotary table sacrifices headroom but, more importantly, it sacrifices rigidity. The vise needs to be firmly attached to the MM table.

Most work that requires a rotary table is clamped or bolted directly to the table. Centering work that is held via a vise would be a real test of your patience.

With all due respect, Brian, I think you need to slow down a bit and not try to get equipped in one fell swoop. Look at the many setups pictured on this BBS and others. (It's not by accident that you'll probably never see a vise mounted on a rotary table.) Start building something - anything - and let the ever-helpful board members critique your setups and suggest other tooling you may need as well as suggest the proper form of that equipment to purchase. (A drill press vise has no place on a mill.) There are many thousands of man-years of experience available here to help you avoid potentially expensive and dangerous misjudgements in the tools you acquire. Take advantage of that experience.

 

[itowbig]

you should ebay more often thats where i get better deals from.
shop around a lot for the best deal.

 

[shred]

IMO, screwless vices are the way to go for small machines and/or low budgets. $50 will get a decent 3" import, while you can't get into Kurt territory for 5 times that. The cheap import Kurt-clones are too big for most tabletop machines.

I got a screwless vice the other day with notches instead of holes, so you don't have to pop the pin all the way out and poke it back in to change sizes. That's convenient, we'll see how it holds up. It looks like this one: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2356&category=3

 

[zeusrekning]

the best milling vises do not have a rotating base. You'll go a decade without ever needing the rotating base, forget it. Yes there are examples of it being used but they're rare....in fact the whole rotating base thing is considered a bit of joke among most experienced guys. Its not that you never need to mill angles, just that you almost never need to mill them on the top of something held in the vise - If you ever do set the vise and to the table with a protractor.. Meanwhile the rotating base consumes daylight and is a source of error.

Before Yesterday I agreeded with you on this Mcgyver. I have never used a rotating base other than rotating full 90 degrees to take advantage of powerfeed when milling the ends of parts. But yesterday I actually used it for something else. I have a 6" Kurt with rotary base. I was making an insertable tool holder for my ball turner project. I rotated the vise 17.5 degrees both ways of zero to machine the insert pocket (35 deg inserts). Cool right no big deal but what did impress me was when I went back to zero and indicating the vise I had less than .001" over 6inches just like when I mounted the vise.


So here is my opinion. On a full sized machine where you have more room I probably would spend the extra couple bucks for a rotating base. On a smaller machine I may but probably would not have it mounted very often because of the height it takes up.
Tim

 

[Brian Rupnow]

Fellows, I really appreciate your input. I am getting advice from people who have experience that I don't have, and that is always a valuable thing. I will return the drill press vice on Monday, and find something more suitable. One of the problems with buying things at Busy Bee tools is that they don't really have experience with the stuff that they are selling. It becomes a case of the blind leading the blind. ---brian

 

[Stan]

My milling machine vise is a Kurt clone and came with a rotary base. It has been on the shelf since the first time I ran out of head room and I have never missed it.

Here is word of advise to Canadian members. Before you make major purchases, compare the US prices with shipping to Busy Bee's prices. I compared some of the current flyer prices from Busy Bee and they are more than double the price of the US tool companies. Make sure that you are comparing apples to apples, but with many of the Chinese imports the specs are identical and in all likelihood came from the same factory. I just sold a lathe and I was trying to help out the new owner with suggestions for tooling.

I am not totally opposed to buying from Busy Bee and I have bought numerous items from them but I do check prices.

 

[Cedge]

I've found that www.littlemachineshop.com has a good variety of quality products at reasonable prices. I've bought a number of things from them and the support in making a choice, as well as after the sale, has been far beyond what I've come to expect. These guys are friendly and knowledgeable about hobby machining, so you are not doing the blind guys thing.

I've also had excellent luck with the guys at www.micromark.com , although their selection of tools tends to be oriented mostly to the machines they sell. Again, their technical support for their machine tools is excellent, especially when compared to some of the horror stories I've heard with some of the other chinese tool importers. This site is one where you're liable to spot that one special miniature tool that you've needed for years.

I'm not associated with either company, other than as a satisfied customer. The big tool houses are great but I still shop these guys when I'm in need of tools or parts.

Steve

 

[rake60]

I suppose it would be wrong for me to say I use a drill press vice on my X2
but I DO...

It's a 4" Craftsman vise and jaws close squarely no matter where the stock
is placed.

The difference between a good drill press vise and a mill vise is that the mill
vise jaws are milled with a slight angle to create a downward force on the
workpiece as the vise is closed.

A rap with a plastic hammer to be sure the workpiece is seated securely against
the parallels works for me. I have a small screwless mill vise but rarely use it.
Working on very small parts the compound forces are difficult for me to judge
and I've distorted a few parts by giving it my best guess.

With the simple drill press vise I know how tight to turn the screw to hold the
piece without twisting or distorting it.

I'm certainly not saying it's the right way, just my way...

Rick

 

[Alphawolf45]

I suppose it would be wrong for me to say I use a drill press vice on my X2
but I DO...

I'm certainly not saying it's the right way, just my way...

Rick

.
I use a pair of Palmgren drillpress vices on my cnc mill for production work..I use cheater bar for extera leverage to tighten it up..Palmgren is good stuff.. I definately say it is the right tool for job I use it for.

 

[lathe nut]

Got this old one at a yard sale, put it on the shaper to true it to the base, Love yard sales

 

[Mcgyver]

Rick, I know you know what you're doing, If for the type of work you are doing the work is small and loads are light enough to us a dill vise or tool makers, peace, but I'd still counsel a beginner to get a quality milling vise for a milling machine though

why the beginner asks? as is obvious to anyone who has used a quality milling vise and drill press vise, the milling machine vise from rigidity of the fixed jaw, heavy wide base and ways to the heavy acme thread is built to provide a lot more clamping force and take machining force than any of these others....there’s also, what should I call it, form factor advantages. Its squat big ways, wider short jaws and lugs to clamp on all make milling easier.

......problem is the sticker shock when they see what one costs If I had to buy tomorrow, I don't know which would be worse, shelling out 1000 bucks for a Kurt or darkening the doorstep of the bee (I dislike that place) As I said a vise is fundamental to accuracy, but price is a problem at $1000+. Then again nothing is forever, buy the milling vise and move forward, upgrade if/when you need to. It would be worth checking with plate, 10ths indicator and quality precision square though, its not a brand i'd trust to be straight, true and square.

if you do go with the Bee, get an extended warranty ;D
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=20848
(on rereading that old thread, its actually a good discussion on the subject)

Tim, yeah, i keep hearing reports about these mysterious uses for them....hey, I’m not against them, mostly I’m indifferent ...just wanted to point out to that Brian shouldn't get his shorts in a knot over whether the vise has a rotating base not. I have one of each, not sure i even remember what bench the rotating base one is hiding under....

 

[Cedge]

A timely thread with quite a lot of useful information. I have been looking at a Kurt clone from Phase II which is on sale right now at Travers tools. The price is right, but I'm really wondering if the swivel base is a plus or a minus. I'm not basing the purchase on the swivel base, but on the convenience and versatility of the vise itself. There are times when the screwless vise can be annoying due to the need for parallels when camping something. Don't read me wrong... the screwless is as nice as sliced bread for accuracy... it just has a small flaw that you must accept ,when you use one.

Since I've still got the little X2 doing secondary duty, an additional vise would be very handy, so I'm strongly considering the purchase. Any input on the basis of my criteria?

Steve

 

[Brian Rupnow]

Okay---I concede!!! You fellows gave me so much heck for the vice I had first purchased that I returned it and bought this puppy. The jaws are 3" wide x 1.4" deep from top of jaws to bed of vice. It is the type which pulls the moving jaw down as it tightens. It has machined sides and machined slots to dog it down to the bed of the mill.---Brian

 

[ksouers]

Good choice, Brian. You won't be disappointed.

I've been very pleased with mine. For what it's worth, the first vise I used on my mill was for a drill press. I did manage to make a couple things using it. But once I got the screwless vise I immediately saw a huge difference in quality and accuracy of my work.

 

[GailInNM]

Glad you made the switch Brian. You will be also.

It is important for the novice to minimize the source of errors so they are can concentrate to improving their skills rather than fight machine tool limitations. As you gain experience you will learn where the problems are coming from and learn how to correct them, but in the beginning it is easy confuse a machine problem with a skill problem. They are of course inter related as the experienced worker can overcome many machine problems with skill, but that takes time. Many hobby machinists are much better at this than this than professional machinists. The pros have never had to work with light and less rigid setups and so have never developed the skills that the hobby machinists develop.

it's not that you could not have made good parts with the vice you originally picked out, but the time it would take to learn how to do so. It will take much less time with your new vice. Congratulations, and we are all looking forward to seeing your first engine made with the help of your new machine.

Gail in NM,USA