Let's discuss market of internal combustion engines

[malofix]

So the backdrop to this post is as follows;
I have recently graduated from a mechanical engineering degree. I've been interested in internal combustion engines from ever before, though i wouldnt call it my passion. Since recently been reading about engineering history and it reignited my passion to do some real engineering work. Maybe i envy a little bit the 20th century's entrepeneurs who pioneered technology and raked some money.

I don't know much about market and i have never done work related to IC engines but i'm confident on my abilities and persistence to learn . So the topic of disccussion is; In today's market is there a place for a guy like me? I'm thinking on doing solo work, finding a clientele. When i make my bussiness work, expand from there.
A note: I'm not US based and i'm thinking in terms of local market and not the global market.

Think of this as a little, local entrepreneurship, i'm not talking about competing with toyota... yet

There is a wide variety of use for IC engines apart from cars. Motocycles, agricultural machines, generators, pumps, aircrafts etc. etc. keep this in mind.

 

[GreenTwin]

I have seen some recent knock-off copies of Honda small engines, and so it is done, and I would guess this trend will continue due to the price of everything these days being so high.

It is going to be difficult for most to compete with mass produced engines using CNC machines, inexpensive labor, and lax regulations.

One opportunity I heard about was African countries asking for old Lister open-crankcase vertical single cylinder, dual flywheel gasoline engines (they look very much like a ball hopper monitor), because they were so simple that they would last a long time in harsh conditions, and could generally be disassembled and repaired with minimal tools and knowledge.

So I guess I would look for a niche market that nobody else wants to provide engines for, and focus on that.

.

 

[malofix]

I have seen some recent knock-off copies of Honda small engines, and so it is done, and I would guess this trend will continue due to the price of everything these days being so high.

It is going to be difficult for most to compete with mass produced engines using CNC machines, inexpensive labor, and lax regulations.

One opportunity I heard about was African countries asking for old Lister open-crankcase vertical single cylinder, dual flywheel gasoline engines (they look very much like a ball hopper monitor), because they were so simple that they would last a long time in harsh conditions, and could generally be disassembled and repaired with minimal tools and knowledge.

So I guess I would look for a niche market that nobody else wants to provide engines for, and focus on that.

.

I see that you got some experience with lister engines, is there like a definitive post to read on lister engines, plans etc to get an idea. I can see that this engine can be useful if it can be manufactured cheap enough.

 

[GreenTwin]

I know a little about single cylinder Listers, and actually have one that I intend to take apart and model one day, but that will take a while.

I am pretty ignorant about diesels, but I have a cut of an old Onan engine, that also looks very much like the twin flywheel Lister single cylinder engines, but was a gasoline engine.

My dad had a twin Lister on his lumber transfer car, and I use to start it every time I walked past it, just to hear it run.

I will have to look for that Onan cut that I have, but it was a perfect example of what I call a "coffee grinder" looking engine.

There was that Lister post from a while back popped up today.
Did you see that?

.

 

[The Ignoble Troll]

I have seen some recent knock-off copies of Honda small engines, and so it is done, and I would guess this trend will continue due to the price of everything these days being so high.

It is going to be difficult for most to compete with mass produced engines using CNC machines, inexpensive labor, and lax regulations.

One opportunity I heard about was African countries asking for old Lister open-crankcase vertical single cylinder, dual flywheel gasoline engines (they look very much like a ball hopper monitor), because they were so simple that they would last a long time in harsh conditions, and could generally be disassembled and repaired with minimal tools and knowledge.

So I guess I would look for a niche market that nobody else wants to provide engines for, and focus on that.

.

The latest Briggs competition to horizontal shaft Honda engines... are clones of Honda gx clones with bigger porting, smaller plug and better cams to cut the head noise.

The small engine market is really saturated with the Honda design.

Subaru tried adding timing chains and was un-successful in the market.

I'd personally say the small utility engine market is saturated unless someone cheaply improves cylinder sealing, tempurature control and thus extends oil life and engine life span for the price of a Honda GX which can already hit 5000 hours, depending on use.


Now vertical Briggs in the higher Hp... those are just bombs that look like engines due to the habit of exploding if run on a grade due to the poorly designed lubrication system.

If you could design a flathead that could meet the emission standards that drove utility flatheads off the market, or design a competitive power plant for lawn tractors... might be room there.

 

[Klrskies]

Maybe you could design an improved / beneficial component for an existing powerplant, something that improves its functionality, performance or durability?

 

[lohring]

I race model boats. We run weedeater type engines from 26 cc to 36 cc. They are tuned pipe twostrokes. The market is very small, but one company produces custom race engines that compete with the mass produced industrial style engines. Take a look at these sites:
https://www.quickdrawengines.com/
https://www.gizmomotors.com/online-store/zenoah
https://www.ddmracing.com/Engines-Engine-Parts/Complete-Engines

Lohring Miller

 

[Niels Abildgaard]

Now vertical Briggs in the higher Hp... those are just bombs that look like engines due to the habit of exploding if run on a grade due to the poorly designed lubrication system.

If you could design a flathead that could meet the emission standards that drove utility flatheads off the market, or design a competitive power plant for lawn tractors... might be room there.

I have dreamt of a side exhaust valve two stroke with normal less than one percent oil/petrol crankcase lubrication.
More even fire,lower mass,lower fuel consumption etc,etc .
What are the Google search terms for these B&S motor turned bombs histories mentioned?

Future lawnmover engine

Turned 90 degree clockwise

 

[The Ignoble Troll]

I have dreamt of a side exhaust valve two stroke with normal less than one percent oil/petrol crankcase lubrication.
More even fire,lower mass,lower fuel consumption etc,etc .
What are the Google search terms for these B&S motor turned bombs histories mentioned?

Future lawnmover engine

Turned 90 degree clockwise

https://www.google.com/search?q=joh...EyNzY2ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I sold small engines a few years ago and it was a 3 calls min per week for blown engines and people seeking replacements. Always the same engine family. lots of fun things like con rods becoming external decorations.

The new hybrid 2/4 strokes out by Stihl have a lot of promise, love running those. Basically a 4 stroke but runs like a two stroke with a throttle feel in between.

Fool proofing a 2 stroke with variable oil injection for things like lawn tractors might be an avenue. At idle you could potentially get them as low as 500:1 and then dial that up to 50:1 at speed. Being able to sell different muffler kits for them to give an owner the torque curve that best suited their use would be really neat.

 

[Niels Abildgaard]

https://www.google.com/search?q=joh...EyNzY2ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I sold small engines a few years ago and it was a 3 calls min per week for blown engines and people seeking replacements. Always the same engine family. lots of fun things like con rods becoming external decorations.

I assume You refer to the 500 ccm single cylinder from B&S with ca 17hp at 60 rps and around 30 kg mass.
What is the anti vibration system and do You have diagram of installed measurents.
For my own pleasure I will scheme a better mousetrap but wonder if the two cylinder V engines sell better.

 

[Niels Abildgaard]

Let me phantazize:
A single cylinder SV Two stroke that runs half the mean effective pressure of a fourstroke give same power at same rpm and has to endure half the maximum pressure.
The big ca 20 horsepower /540 ccm/ 60 rps/94mm bore/78mm stroke four stroke OHV singles can be substituded by a 77mm bore 110 stroke SV two stroke within same envelope

 

[Niels Abildgaard]

A sure way to get rich and famous.

I tried and failed so field is still open.

There is an obvious need of having an si combustion engine that generatec 5 to 50kW electricity using alcohol,petrol, CNG etc,ect. for reserve and range extending in electric cars.

From first principles it can be foreseen that the cleanest,lowest mass,least vibrating ect concept is a single cylinder with two opposed pistons,cranks and AC generators as proposed and demonstrated by me in 1994.

WebArchieve

or another of same

More Junkerator

Some resent work in that direction can be found on sage:

Phase regulated opposed pistons enginerator

I think personally that trying to find the holy optimum exhaust crankshaft phase angle lead is waste of time as an angle of zero is best anyway.

The optimum combustion system will be a half sphere and spark plug in each piston .

Invent that and be rich and famous

 

[Andrew Pullin]

Hi Guys,

I was searching for other information and stumbled on to this thread. I have 2c worth for you.

The largest car maker in the world is Toyota. Only 10% of the new cars they make are electric or hybrid. All of the others are IC engines.
Toyota is also one of the leaders in the Hydrogen IC engine research field and they already offer H2 engines in their cars. The problem is that
the infrastructure for hydrogen is just not available yet. What does the largest car maker in the world know that we don't? They are producing
just enough electric or hybrid cars to satisfy the needs of most first world countries but no more.

I personally believe that electric or hybrid is a good range extender and stop gap technology for cars and trucks until the hydrogen economy
builds its infrastructure. Until battery technology comes along without the recycling problems of current battery technology it will NOT be the
final solution to getting rid of fossil fuels.

The IC engine is very mature technology - we know all about how to make these engines. Where the H2 infrastructure is actually in place like in
California, driving around in a hydrogen car is like driving anything else. Same range, same ease and speed of refilling, and cost at present is very
competitive with alternatives and the ramp up of infrastructure hasn't really started yet.

So in terms of this discussion, where should you consider putting your engineering experience? How about in small Hydrogen powered IC engines?
First to market is often the race winner. This is technology that is desperately needed. Batteries are saturating this market right now. It think it is a very
good area of development to get involved in. People are already talking about hydrogen fuel cell batteries for these types of machines like standing
engines or leaf blowers or hand tools. Is an electric chain saw really going to cut it? (Pun intended)

Cheers

Andrew

 

[Niels Abildgaard]

A range of 5 to 50 kW Range Extender gensets will surely be needed.
Fuel either compressed natural gas or hydrogen.
On roads with more than say 100 cars and permitting higher than 50 miles per hr ,cheapest and best propulsion system is nuclear power and pick-up electric contacts on road.
For slower, lower class roads 5 to 50 kW from genset or batteries.

Future transport

My Fiat Punto was tested (real) for power versus speed and results are two last coloums kW and km/h

Fiat Punto kW versus kmh

 

[HMEL]

Hi Guys,

I was searching for other information and stumbled on to this thread. I have 2c worth for you.

The largest car maker in the world is Toyota. Only 10% of the new cars they make are electric or hybrid. All of the others are IC engines.
Toyota is also one of the leaders in the Hydrogen IC engine research field and they already offer H2 engines in their cars. The problem is that
the infrastructure for hydrogen is just not available yet. What does the largest car maker in the world know that we don't? They are producing
just enough electric or hybrid cars to satisfy the needs of most first world countries but no more.

I personally believe that electric or hybrid is a good range extender and stop gap technology for cars and trucks until the hydrogen economy
builds its infrastructure. Until battery technology comes along without the recycling problems of current battery technology it will NOT be the
final solution to getting rid of fossil fuels.

The IC engine is very mature technology - we know all about how to make these engines. Where the H2 infrastructure is actually in place like in
California, driving around in a hydrogen car is like driving anything else. Same range, same ease and speed of refilling, and cost at present is very
competitive with alternatives and the ramp up of infrastructure hasn't really started yet.

So in terms of this discussion, where should you consider putting your engineering experience? How about in small Hydrogen powered IC engines?
First to market is often the race winner. This is technology that is desperately needed. Batteries are saturating this market right now. It think it is a very
good area of development to get involved in. People are already talking about hydrogen fuel cell batteries for these types of machines like standing
engines or leaf blowers or hand tools. Is an electric chain saw really going to cut it? (Pun intended)

Cheers

Andrew

I have three chain saws, two gas one electric. They all have their place but the electric has a real advantage when its near a source of power and the cord is less than 100 feet. Its lighter, always starts, much easier to handle, but still takes the same care from the drive sprocket to the chain and blade. Plus I dont have to worry about a hot exhaust causing a fire. The gas driven ones are bigger more powerful, a bit more dangerous, but can also handle tougher jobs. Now I suspect if my electric was battery powered it would be good for sawing twigs!

 

[Nerd1000]

Having used a battery operated chainsaw, they are actually rather good. Not the sort of thing you'd use for serious forestry work, but very handy for cutting small trees, thick branches and so forth. The one I used had a 10" bar, so a fairly small saw.

 

[ajoeiam]

Hi Guys,

I was searching for other information and stumbled on to this thread. I have 2c worth for you.

The largest car maker in the world is Toyota. Only 10% of the new cars they make are electric or hybrid. All of the others are IC engines.
Toyota is also one of the leaders in the Hydrogen IC engine research field and they already offer H2 engines in their cars. The problem is that
the infrastructure for hydrogen is just not available yet. What does the largest car maker in the world know that we don't? They are producing
just enough electric or hybrid cars to satisfy the needs of most first world countries but no more.

I personally believe that electric or hybrid is a good range extender and stop gap technology for cars and trucks until the hydrogen economy
builds its infrastructure. Until battery technology comes along without the recycling problems of current battery technology it will NOT be the
final solution to getting rid of fossil fuels.

The IC engine is very mature technology - we know all about how to make these engines. Where the H2 infrastructure is actually in place like in
California, driving around in a hydrogen car is like driving anything else. Same range, same ease and speed of refilling, and cost at present is very
competitive with alternatives and the ramp up of infrastructure hasn't really started yet.

So in terms of this discussion, where should you consider putting your engineering experience? How about in small Hydrogen powered IC engines?
First to market is often the race winner. This is technology that is desperately needed. Batteries are saturating this market right now. It think it is a very
good area of development to get involved in. People are already talking about hydrogen fuel cell batteries for these types of machines like standing
engines or leaf blowers or hand tools. Is an electric chain saw really going to cut it? (Pun intended)

Cheers

Andrew

The 'hydrogen economy' is still very much a future based one.
There are quite a number of practical issues that need to get 'fixed' before really 'available'.

There are possibilities if one includes the use of point reforming technologies.
(ie some kind of fuel is reformed into hydrogen + ???? at the point of use - - - like a fuel cell)

 

[Steamchick]

I Have a 40V battery 2in chainsaw. Adequate for the garden. Dropped a 30 ft walnut tree and cut the trunk through at about 14 inches (cutting from either side as per regular tree felling). Also chopped the trunk into 6 x 2 ft lengths. For the branch trimming I had previously used a brash saw - 12v single handed. And that also cut sections of 2in square steel tubing for a repair job. Cut jour the old and cut the new lengths for welding. Battery jobs seem to be a "strong" as mains powered. Just limited to 30 mins typically. OK for the garden. Not an 8 hour shift.
K2