How much layout?

[Marinesteam]

After seeing the "How to start a project" thread degrade I'm almost afraid to ask this question....

On my small machining tasks and on my first project I have not done any layout. I just rough cut the stock and start cutting using the DRO and all has turned out well.

How many of you do layout (bluing & scribing) on the part before machining, to what extent and why?

Thanks in advance

Ken

 

[rleete]

I do everything, because it helps me visualize exactly what operations I'm going to do. As I go on, I foresee laziness taking over, and much less layout being done.

 

[rake60]

I layout all my mill work.
I don't own any DRO's so it's all by dial indicators.
If a mark doesn't come real close I'm left to ask:
Did I lay it out wrong, or did an indicator move? ???

Rick

 

[Cedge]

The first time I bought layout fluid, I made the statement that the bottle would probably last me forever. Two months later I was buying another bottle. I use it on nearly everything I make. A nice clearly visible mark has saved me more than once. I also use it for finding unwanted metal to metal contact....and it is worth every penny.

Steve

 

[Maryak]

Ken,

I do a layout when I need to make sure that the bit I want to make, will fit into the bit I want to make it from.

Other times I do one where I want to remove excess metal in lumps rather than swarf and the lumps removed will be big enough for my come in handy box. (If only I'd learn to do casting :

The oldy but goody "measure twice cut once." springs to the fore.

Hope this helps ??? ???

Best Regards
Bob

 

[Brian Rupnow]

I lay out everything!!! My mill does not have DROs on it, and my layouts confirm that I have indeed used the correct number of turns and part turns to get the drill or cutter to where it is supposed to be. I also have a round peice of 3/8" cold rolled steel which is pointed on one end, and referred to as "Peter Pointer". Many times on my initial "set up" I will put "Peter Pointer" in the chuck and line it up with a centerpunched point on my layout and use that position as "0" when moving the mill tables to other positions.---Brian

 

[joeby]

In the time I spent in trade school, and the small shops I had worked in back then, layout was always one of those extra steps some people took; but I'd say the majority didn't bother though. It was taught; but not "pushed".

Almost twenty years ago, I started an apprenticeship in a fairly large die shop. They really pushed hard on the layout step, it was expected of you to layout a die before doing any cutting. We did most of our layout right at the machine because "we aren't making money roughing", you were constantly coached on roughing to the layout lines and to leave a very minimum for finishing. Most of the machine time you put into a job was for finishing, I can still remember cutting a forging die cavity for a gas regulator and seeing the final total for machine time was 270 hours. That sounds like a lot; but doing 3D cavity work on a manual machine doesn't go fast. After all that, sometimes the die needed EDM work too, and after you had spent all those days turning handles you didn't want the EDM guys burning in the wrong spot, so layout on his part was something you expected him to do.

Point is, the layout is one of those steps that isn't directed at the inexperienced. The easiest thing you'll ever have to make is a mistake. I still lay out mill work even if it's just a simple slot or hole pattern. None of my machines have DRO's on them and it just makes things go easier. No easier way to make sure you haven't missed a turn on the handle.

I still have several machine scribes that we made as apprentices. They are nothing more than a steel shank with a spring-loaded carbide point to keep the scribe from digging in to softer material.

Kevin

 

[Philjoe5]

I believe I can trace most of my major screwups in the shop to not using layout lines and marks. Here’s one example, in fact, it was the last time I didn’t use any layout marks. I needed to drill and tap 6 holes on the end of this cylinder. First thing in the morning I set up the workpiece and went to drill the first hole. As soon as I drilled it I could see something was off. This is the result.

The black lines were ADDED AFTER THE FACT! They took about 30 seconds to add. I had about 8 hours in this workpiece and if I had taken the extra 30 seconds to add those lines I would have clearly seen I was not aligned.

Here’s what the second attempt looked like 8 hours later. Layout lines were used for everything.

I was reading Stephen King’s latest novel, Duma Key last summer. There was a Latin phrase used at one point in the story - Abyssus Abyssum Invocat which is a biblical expression that has come to mean one misstep leads to another. That is such an appropriate expression in machining that it serves as my byline in my profile on this forum. It serves to remind me that making a mistake, maybe even a small one like not using layout lines, can lead to a larger mistake, like having a hole in a position where it’s not supposed to be.

Cheers,
Phil

 

[Mainer]

Depends. Occasionally I do. Most of the time I don't.

What I do, which is sort of a substitute for layout, is just barely dimple the locations of all the holes in a part before I commit to drilling any of them. Then I can see if it looks right, and the dimples give a reference when I go back to drill to be sure I don't screw up the locations.

I'll also do a trial move around a part with an endmill, raised, as a sanity check.

 

[Bernd]

Phil,

Could you have saved that piece by plugging that hole? Seems like it would have taken less time to plug than to make a new one.

Bernd

 

[artrans]

Like bernd said he is almost afraid to ask that's not right . So that's it for me I will not post anything anymore I will just read and get what i can out of site . That should make Maryaks job easier. And not to be a baby but again the good lose out Because someone has to prove a point and the police of the site take the wrong stand. I consider myself an avg guy and just looking for info or a better way to do things. Maybe the stand should be the guy that insults someone gets locked out not the other way around. Lets face it any subject can turn into a fight take this one I am sure someone hates using lay out dye. Does that make it wrong for the rest of us.

 

[Philjoe5]

Bernd,
I did fool around with trying to plug the hole and learned a few tricks in the process. Then I decided to remake the cylinder because the fix ended up being a little sloppy.

Cheers,
Phil

 

[Bernd]

artrans,

I could have posted that answer several ways. I could have told you how to fix it or I could ask you if you could have fixed.

Some times you need to be subtle. As tensions are running a bit high at the present I decided it was best to pose it as a question. This way nobody gets offended, plus I'd hoped somebody would take that bit of advice I posed as a question and be able to use it next time they drill a hole in the wrong spot. Some times it much easier to ask a person a question to get them to do it than it is to come out direct and tell them how to do it. It ruffels the feathers a bit less that way. Believe me I've have over 30 years experince.

Please keep posting. Not posting will not help in any way.

Bernd

P.S. This is getting way off topic unless you want to lay some out with a punch. :big: :big: :big:

 

[Bernd]

Bernd,
I did fool around with trying to plug the hole and learned a few tricks in the process. Then I decided to remake the cylinder because the fix ended up being a little sloppy.

Cheers,
Phil

Phil,

To bad. But at least you tried. I remember from were I worked that they used to plug holes in big castings if they were drilled wrong. It was just a thought and I see you beat me to it.

Bernd

 

[Brian Rupnow]

Artrans--Chill out!!! No one is posting a direct attack on you in this thread. Please try not to be too defensive. Your comments are welcomed, as are everyone elses. I commited the cardinal sin of taking offence at what I perceived to be an insulting comment from a member on this forum, and as a result of it I was warned, and we lost a very valuable member from the forum who chose to leave the forum rather than quarrel openly on the forum. We all have different ways of doing things, and our perceptions of the "right way" all differ. ---brian

 

[Cedge]

Art
I agree with Brian.... Chill out. On a board with 2000 members there is going to be the occasional disagreement. CD2 and I are both adults and neither of us directed any of our discussion at you nor any other individual We confronted only each other. I'm a big boy and can take what he has to dish and I'm sure he can take mine in kind. In the mean time don't go taking it so personally, at least until you see your own name being abused.

In a perfect world everyone would agree on everything, but since it isn't perfect, we sometimes need to air our differences in hopes that some common ground is achieved. Sometimes common ground is the end result, sometimes its just an agreement to disagree. I doubt CD2 will be sending me any Christmas cards, but I do respect his talents as an experienced machinist, even as I chide him for his perceived lack of patience with the new kids on the block.

That being said, I'm not about to apologize for publicly taking a pro newbie stance.

Brian
Tis a big man that can say what you've just written. Bogs was the first to say it wasn't your doing that he chose to leave the board, just that you were the unlucky recipient of his final swan song.

It's been fun watching you as you fought your way through the past few projects, because I know exactly how it feels to put it ALL online to be seen.... successes and failures. It ain't easy and certainly not for the faint of heart....eh?

Steve

 

[Kermit]

I realize my opinion counts for spit but I ALWAYS layout everything I do. I have never done any metal work before but I would be willing to bet that when I'm ready to make chips out of good metal I'll have a layout from which to deviate!

See?

If anything I build comes close to matching my plans I'm a happy dude,
Kermit

 

[pelallito]

When I was in my machine shop class, at a certain point the teacher told me that if I continued to use layout blue in a shop they would call me Blueboy to make fun of me.
I still continue to lay things out, but where I live the red layout liquid survives the heat better, so I use that most of the time. The only problem that it gives me is that the family thinks that I have cut myself again, while working in the shop. Does that makes me a redboy?
Regards,
Fred

 

[stevehuckss396]

I have only laid out one part so far. It was the crankshaft for the peewee. I laid out for rough cutting in the mill before turning in the lathe. Other than that one time, I rely an the DRO.

 

[Brian Rupnow]

I have made engineering drawings of so many things, for so many years, and layed out so many lines---that swmbo tells people that I can't go for a good S##T without making a plan of it first!!! ;D ;D ;D