Breisch Olds 1/2 scale engine drawings

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I have contacted mini steam and received a response that they only own the 1/4 scale engine. I have also spoken to Tom Ball who did own both the 1/4 scale and the 1/2 scale and the woodpecker engines. He does not know who owns the 1/2 scale. No one seems to know who owns the 1/2 scale. I also sent an email to Bob Herder who has not replied at this time.
I agree with most of what has been said about the issues here. I never intended to stir up such a tremendous issue with this. I never intended to infringe or profit from such a request. I was simply looking for a resolution to my problem and would have been quite happy to pay for the drawings from the current legal owner if anyone knew who that is.
I also have a personal and professional interest in this issue as I own the patterns and drawings for all the items that were able to be recovered from Joe Touchtrop, when he passed away. There was recently an inquiry on one of the facebook groups for prints for the Economy engine as someone had a broken part. I sent them a reply that I have the prints. However they obtained them from someone else.
 
Hi guys! This is Doug C from Executive Model Design. I got the message from Todd today. I do not know who owns the larger version of this model but we own the rights to the smaller Olds model. I can give you a set of the plans for the smaller one if that would be helpful to you. I cannot guarantee that it is a direct scaling from the larger kit. I purchased the rights from Gary Schoenly (Cabin Fever Expos) who got them from (sorry I can't remember the name. I believe was sometime after Paul Breisch passed. It might have been Jay Peters.). He is one of the most likely to know who owns the rights to the larger version and possibly where to get a set of plans.

cobweb81, send me an email at [email protected] if you want a copy of the smaller model plans.
 
Thanks Doug!


cobweb81;
I did some more digging on the Inter-web and found a thread over at SMOKSTAK. From that thread, Mike Pershinsky near York, PA bought the 1/3-Associated in air and water cooled as well as the 1/2-scale olds.

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/breisch-or-breisch-peters-casting-kits.35428/
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/breisch-models.32994/
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/breisch-1-2-scale-olds-plans-needed.98203/

His contact info can be found here: http://www.antiquengines.com/Davis_Model_Suppliers_List_.htm

and posted here for good measure:
Michael Pershinsky
PO Box 382
East Petersburg, Pa 17520 USA
(717-676-8115)
[email protected]

Hoping this helps,
Todd.
 
LorenOtto said:
As a retired bookseller, I tend to think of these used plans in the same context as used books and other publications. It is not illegal to sell used books or ephemera, but it may be illegal to sell reproductions without authorization of the copyright holder. The recourse for the copyright holder is civil action.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think of plans a little differently from books. The rights to some plans, but certainly not all, grant the purchaser the right to construct only one engine from the plan set. If the single engine was built then the plans on-sold to another builder to build another, that would be a loss for the copyright holder, similar to if a group of builders purchased a single plan set to build an engine each. Apart from some text books which provide additional online material to the original purchaser only, I can't think of a prohibition on selling used books to another purchaser in the same sort of manner.

For the sake of the hobby, I'd prefer if no copyright holder was forced to pursue any legal action to protect themselves and believe we need to self-regulate on this issue.
 
My understanding from a retired patent attorney
Is a 20% change from the latest patented revision. Is enough to say the part in question is not the same part that was under patent. Take this for what it’s worth I am not a attorney but I did stay at a Holiday express
 
Cogsy said:
Personally, I think of plans a little differently from books. The rights to some plans, but certainly not all, grant the purchaser the right to construct only one engine from the plan set. If the single engine was built then the plans on-sold to another builder to build another, that would be a loss for the copyright holder, similar to if a group of builders purchased a single plan set to build an engine each. Apart from some text books which provide additional online material to the original purchaser only, I can't think of a prohibition on selling used books to another purchaser in the same sort of manner.

For the sake of the hobby, I'd prefer if no copyright holder was forced to pursue any legal action to protect themselves and believe we need to self-regulate on this issue.
Click to expand...
Well said.
Thanks,
Todd.
 
Well put makes sense to me I was just quoting what I was told and what I knew from past experiences.
 
Cogsy, you have called attention to the issue that I think is the major point of confusion.

Consider a book, legally purchased. Can you sell it to someone else? Indeed you can, and it will transfer completely to the new owner. Can you make a xerox copy of it and sell that to someone else? Absolutely not; now two iterations of the book exist, only one of which was paid for. If we use this approach for model engine plans, then it seems like, though I can't make copies and sell or give them away, I surely ought to be able to sell or give away the original plans. Right?

But wait: Consider an installation disk or download file for some bit of commercial software, legally purchased. Can you sell that to someone else? That depends; the key question is, did you load it on your computer before passing it along to someone else? If so, you are creating the opportunity for two iterations of the software to exist, only one of which was paid for. For this reason, commercial software usually comes with quite detailed EULA's that attempt to define exactly what the purchaser actually owns - in general, suggesting that what the user has purchased is not the software, but rather a license to use the software. In theory then, you can pass the disk / download around all you want, but only one person owns the license to use the software, so anyone else who uses the disk / download to install it is in copyright violation.

Which of the above is a better analogy for the situation of a set of plans for building an engine? I'd suggest the software, not the book. Like software, the plans are set of instructions. It is all too easy to pass these instructions on to any number of people, each of whom "installs" them by building a model. But the plans come with a software-like EULA (though not as detailed and complex), which essentially says that what the original purchaser owns is not the plans, but rather a license to build one model. If that purchaser has not built the model (not "installed" the software), it should be fine to sell or pass along to someone else. But if the purchaser has built the model, then the license has been used.

A major source of confusion is attempting to enforce this model by tying plans to castings. It seems like a simple approach - only one physical set of castings exist, so the plans can be used only with that set of castings, i.e., only once. Simple, right? But the OP's situation illustrates the problem with this approach; over time, the castings can be separated from the plans. Where does the license to use the plans now reside - in the plans themselves, or in the castings?

It might be less confusing to disengage the connection between plans and castings. Make the plans available on the software model: the purchase of these plans is actually the purchase of one license to build one model. Once that model has been built - however it has been built - the license has been used, and it cannot be passed on to anyone else. If you want, you can also make castings available, separately from the plans. The buyer can do anything he/she want with the castings, including melting them down for scrap. Only if you have bought a license (plans) can you use those castings to make this particular model.
 
We are not going to solve the problem here but a frequent problem with these model engines is the many of them were made and sold by some individual who made and sold a limited number and operated out of his garage. Frequently the original designer died and the patterns and drawing were destroyed or given to someone who does not know what they are or has no interest in continuing. We are dealing with a very limited business, not General Motors. Frequently trying to locate the original seller or the current owner is impossible. It frequently happens that someone has a set of castings or a partially completed engine and their heirs have no idea what it is and just sells or gives it to someone. How many of us have casting sets or partially completed engines setting around which we are going to do something with "someday"?
 
Reeves sell drawings and castings separately. You can buy either or both. In this case the drawing set is not linked to a set of castings. If you buy a set of drawings, but not the castings, can the drawings then be resold?

Chuck
 
kuhncw said:
Reeves sell drawings and castings separately. You can buy either or both. In this case the drawing set is not linked to a set of castings. If you buy a set of drawings, but not the castings, can the drawings then be resold?

Chuck
Click to expand...

I don't know what sort of conditions there are on those plans (or maybe somewhere on the site they're purchased from?) but I think the common-sense approach works best, basically as awake wrote about in his post. If we buy a set of plans and construct an engine from them, then essentially they have been 'used up' and shouldn't be on-sold.

It's the same as if we got together as a group and bought 6 casting sets from Reeves but only one set of plans. Then we either complete the engine one at a time and pass the plans along to the next member of the group, or we could share out the plan sheets and swap them around as need be or, the easiest thing to do, photocopy the entire plan set 6 times so every group member has a copy. In all these situations we are doing exactly the same thing, cheating the producer of the product out of sales and going against the intent of copyright.

Those are my thoughts. Again, I'm not a lawyer but I think these are reasonable assumptions that protect our hobby. I think it's also very telling that just a few days ago there were comments about this potentially not really being applicable because Mr. Breisch passed away so long ago, etc. , yet now we have the current copyright holder offering plans and castings for sale - which is exactly why we want to protect these copyrights.
 
Interesting discussion. I have a set of plans for an Otto-Langen engine by Emmett Lenaz that was to be built from stock and that are dated 1999. They are no longer in print or for sale so far as I can tell and I've had a couple requests for copies. I've refused to help as it is not clear if a copyright still exists or if it is being enforced now. Does anyone have any relevant info on the designer or copyright status?
 
Unless the holder has formally relinquished the copyright, it is certainly still in effect (and will be for very many more years). Hopefully someone knows more of the story of these plans.
 
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