Annoying Newb Asks More Questions : Lathe

[Antman]

First off I don’t know why I have been elevated to advanced member status. I have never turned a chip in my life, my typing is terrible and with my slow dialup connection, photo uploads are unlikely.
Thanks for the shaper info, just started reading about shapers a short while ago and now one is waiting for me in Johannesburg and I can't wait to get it home and lighten the load of some tractor out there.
I suppose this question has actually been beaten to death : Chinese Lathes : I was planning on a new one, they look pretty sturdy but the finish on things like graduated collars is rough. I guess the main thing here is runout in the spindle. For a new 500mm between centres, 250mm swing over bed the price is 9k ZAR, which includes not much more than a 3 jaw and tailstock drill chuck. I’ve lucked into a guy selling a Boxford for 6k5 ZAR. He gives it at 700mm b.c. and 240mm swing with auto crossfeed. I think it must be a 4½” model. I never even thought of auto crossfeed as a desirable feature on a lathe. What for, all I can think of is for facing? My main criterion for a lathe was a taper in the headstock to fit collets mostly. Will the Boxford have some archaic head taper that I will never find collets for? If it is really worn I won’t consider it, I want to start making things asap, not rebuilding my machines. I can find used Chinese lathes under 5 years old for 4k5 to 6k. I suppose most of you with the patience to reply will say go for the Boxford whatever the condition.
Thanks again,
Ant.

 

[RobWilson]

What model Boxford? ,AUD,BUD,CUD ,three morse tapper in the head stock,two in the tail stock.
Regards Rob

 

[Antman]

No idea of exactly which model, seller sending me pix Monday. The good thing is that his contact number is at work, and Tuesday is a public holiday. Many businesses close Monday as well, they just shorten closed time in December/Jan by a day. So he won’t be in his shop to answer calls until Wednesday and that is when I hope to be in the Big City. He tells me he’s had calls but no one has been there to look. Also some tooling thrown in with the lathe. Sounds sweet to me. Here we pay severely for anything imported, e.g. a QCTP sets you back just over a Grand. I don’t know what is included, I will see Wednesday. Thanks for taper info. This is starting to look really good.
Ant

 

[Mainer]

Boxfords -- some models, at least -- bear more than a passing similarity to South Bend lathes. I think there must have been some sort of deal worked out during WW II for sharing of designs. Maybe somebody else knows for sure. I think Boxford then took the South Bend design and improved on it in several ways, resulting in a very good lathe. So...assuming it hasn't been worn out, it's well worth considering.

 

[kvom]

Power crossfeed is a nice feature as it yields a much better surface than hand feeding.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

I don’t know why I have been elevated to advanced member status.

Hello Ant.

I had had the same question a few months ago...

As I understand it, it has to do with how active you are on the forum. Basically, the more posting (contributing) you do...the more you advance. Also don't be surprised when you start noticing your 'karma' going up. It's a way for people to say 'great job' or to recognize a particularly good contribution.

I have been following your questions with interest.

Best regards,

 

[Loose nut]

Mainer is right, the Boxford, at least the original 9" models, were British made Southbends and many parts and accessories are interchangeable. Newer models may not be so. High quality lathes but have the same limitations as the small Southbends did. Definitely worth a look and considering the prices of lathes there, if the price is right and condition is good, grab it.

 

[Antman]

My prospects of buying a pair of 50 year old machines, Atlas 7 and a Boxford lathe are almost a sure thing when I get to Jozi. I’m going to buy the shaper whatever its condition ( as long as it runs), I an intrigued by this machines capability from what I have read, with such simple tooling, downside being the mechanical complexity and all that sliding. I suppose all the bushings are makeable and replaceable, what about the gears and ram how bad do they get worn? I am just busy planing things in my little pip, really excited about doing it for real.
I defineitely don’t want to go for a worn out lathe, no matter how pretty it is. I have a lot of info about what to look out for in an old lathe, I hope I won’t be disappointed. I think I’m gonna want a faceplate, centres and 4 jaw chuck early in the game ( I wonder how low it’s gonna take me to build a running engine. There are a few things I want to make first to develop skills and to help work toward more comlicated things). A big decider will be what tools or accessories will be thrown in with the lathe. I notice on this forum no one has much to say about the Chinese lathes, good or bad, on other forums they sometimes get quite slagged. I must say they look quite alright to me and seem very rugged, less flex?
This is going to be quite a challenge for me to start with nice machines and see what I can produce. This is something I’ve been wanting to get around to for ages, and never have. I still have Curly’s book about building Tich that I bought about ’72.
Wish me luck,
Ant

 

[Maryak]

Ant,

Good luck in Joburg. ;D

I have a Chinese lathe, this is my second. For a run of the mill jobbing lathe, IMHO its as accurate as any other I have come across. My only complaint is the way in which the tailstock is mounted, which necessitates a set up each time turning between centres is to be done. It came with 3 & 4 Jaw chucks, fixed and travelling steadies and a faceplate. I used it pretty well out of the box after setting it up on my bench. 300mm swing and 600mm between centres with all dials being dual calibrated and adjustable. It has a 3mm pitch leadscrew and will cut imperial threads as well but I cannot say that the finer pitched imperial threads are all that accurate with the gears provided. It also has power cross feed as standard

Would I buy another one - Yes I would. Especially as so many machine tool companies are importing them re-badging them, and on selling in their local markets. In Oz the same lathe made locally would be a minimum 3 times the price without the accessories.

 

[DavesWimshurst]

Ant,
The atlas shaper is fun to use though slower than a mill
My shaper

I made these tool holders for a Stevenson style tool holder using it:

Good luck with your purchases.
Dave

 

[Antman]

Well, I have lugged my shaper home and it is a beaut. Clean, nice Atlas 7 from a terrific old aircraft hydraulic mechanic who only wants to retire and play with his locomotive and radial engine. And a legitamte reason for selling it – he bought a bigger older one ;D. My machine has a modification, a bigger rachet and pawl.
I will post pics, maybe you recognise the mod, commercial or some published plan.
I could not find a lathe. The Boxford was much too big and the tailstock messed also probably the compound slide. Marked as a 4 ½” Model A. From my first impressions not what I want, I want to be able to mill on the cross slide. I saw another badly abused monster.
So no lathe.
Ant

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Good for you. Don't pick the first one you see.
Wait for the lathe to call you...then you'll know you have the right one. ;D

 

[Maryak]

Ant,

Congrats on the shaper - wheres the piccy. ???

Bad luck about the lathe, but like Zee says, "There is one out there with your name on it." Hang loose. ;D

Best Regards
Bob

 

[Antman]

Wow, Yeah! Been playing with the shaper but we don't have much steel or any cast iron, nobody I know wants to give or sell a tractor weight ( I am meeting a guy tomorrow who says he has a huge weight from a Magirus about 180kg. I suppose too much is better than nothing ) but Oom R gave me a big ol truck axle for when I get a lathe.
We’ve been doing a bit of planing off an uncomleted filing task, little C clamp in mild steel. Will try to make very small V blox also 45 degree blox. The shaper is badly worn about the pair of gears on the outside of the machine, one of which carries the T–slot for the feed drive. What are they called? If anyone tells me I’ll start a thread showing how I fixed them with truck scrap, if I find a lathe. The internals seem clean, quiet and well oiled.
No pix because frankly, electronics annoys me, and the kids haven’t got around to asking their Dad if they could help post them. Our uploads are so slow sometimes they crash the computer.
Ant.

 

[Antman]

Here's my little Atlas 7. Note the bigger rachet and pawl, it can crossfeed very fine
Ant

 

[Stan]

My advice would be to decline the 180kg chunk of cast iron and the truck axle. Neither are suitable for home shop raw material. Go to a metal supplier and buy some metal of known alloy to practice on. Aluminum and brass are much more forgiving than steel if you make a bad mistake.

 

[Antman]

Stan, the motivation to use scrap is largely economic. On the Big Mac scale you guys are about 3 times or more better off. Also I am miles away from anything like speciality metal dealers and I have my son with me who has some machine tool training, so I hope we don't make major mistakes. I did decline the huge tractor weight, only because it was too much to carry so soon after getting the shaper into its new home, but I came away with a 50kg weight, a good thick one, but what a mission to cut it into smaller chunks. I just can't see myself turning valuable metal into scrap, it's a mind set. When I know a little more I will lay out for better stock. I am being careful, using low speeds and taking shallow cuts.
cheers,
Ant

 

[arnoldb]

Hi Ant

You might want to check out these RSA based metal suppliers:

http://www.nfm.co.za/index.php?page=home.html
http://www.metalscentre.edx.co.za

I don't know where in SA you're located, but it might be feasible for you to order metals from them and have it shipped to your home town. I tried it, but the shipping charges from RSA to Namibia and the associated cross-border charges and taxes come to more than the cost of the metals

Regards, Arnold

 

[Stan]

Ant: Although finances may be tight, you can do a lot of damage with the wrong material in small machines, along with a lot of frustration. There is no practical way to hold that 50 kg lump of cast iron on a #7 Atlas shaper. Cutting it by hand with a hacksaw will certainly give you lots of practice to get pieces small enough to hold in the shaper vice.

Truck axles, when new, have a hardened spline on one end, a break away cap on the other end and some damn tough material in between. If it is used the material in between may have a twist in it that really compounds the machining problem.

Even in the remote parts of the world, there are scrap yards where metal is bought to be recycled. Anything that looks like mild steel, pieces of brass, or aluminum would be preferable to practice on. If there are no scrap yards then local farmers, machine and welding shops must have piles of scrap behind their buildings.

 

[helinutnz]

Hi Guys. First off I am a New Zealander. If that hasn't put you off then keep reading!
I'm a newbie here. First Lathe and have an AL320G like Maryak who I have had dialogue with on email and he was very helpful to me.
I'm a pilot that used to be a mechanic in a former life and muck about with Model Helicopters. I have always wanted a lathe and that brings me to this forum and your question Antman as I have been in the same boat deciding what to do.

Firstly I would not consider myself an expert unless it was something about an unknown quantity and being a drip under pressure. ;D If I were to look at a 40 or 50 year old machine I don't think i could have known adequately wether the machine was in excellent condition or not. I don't know how to measure wear on the bed or really what to look for and didn't want to spend heaps of money and time restoring an old but good lathe to a great workable condition.

So I went Chinese. Mistake....maybe...maybe not. Certainly to get as much offered in a high quality machine it would cost 3 times as much although next time I may be influenced to go for a taiwanese made lathe.
I bought the AL320G (CQ9332) and made a very sturdy mount for it. Maryak had a goodie. It seems they are made and rebadged as my one is and depending on whom you get it from dictates the QC but I would imagine the basic machine is the same quality of parts.

A collar fell out of the apron on my one. Undersize collar or oversize hole. It holds the lower gear shaft. I did a deal with the dealer for a skoda live centre if i repaired it myself as there only serviceman is 600k's away. No worries...I capscrewed that sucker on.
Now I found the really nasty stuff. Can you read DIRTY! Dip a part in oil, then in the casting sand and swarf bin and then fit directly to lathe.
I took the leadscrew off and removed/dismantled the complete carriage. It was truly a mess. I polished all gibs, I cleaned all casting sand and swarf away. I deburred shafts and gears. I refitted with lube and adjusted. (this included regreasing the screw bearings on the compound and cross slides) now the whole carriage runs like a swiss watch. Engaging the longditudinal or cross feed is so easy and smooth as well as engaging the threading half nuts.
Personally I am happy with what i got for the money in the quality of engineering which is ok but the QC was...well...rubbish.
I cleaned the headstock gearbox out. Run your magnetic pickup tool in the oil.....yuk. Swarf and casting sand. So even before it run's suck the oil out. Clean with kero and I used 46 hyd oil for run in (maryak we talked about this and I had to go with the sellers advice for warranty purposes but I have some 68 on the way as it will be changed in 3 months)
I removed the backstock gears, cleaned and refitted with lithuim grease.

All this and the machine is running very well yet i still have a 2 thou runout over six inches so i have an issue to sort out. I will reset the bed up again with a borrowed engineers level and use rolles dads method of checking the headstock alignment. If it's out I will try to adjust it.
If i can get it to 1 thou over 12 inches I will reach my goal for that machine.
Now I only made a very quick check before heading away to work for a ten day trip so i need to eliminate other things like not taking a heavy cut with the carbide but taking a light surface cut with a HSS bit and checking the taper with a proper micrometer and not a caliper.

If it does taper I can fix it but it's more time tweaking and adjusting and quite frankly I expected to have to muck about a bit but not as much as I have.
It is suffice to say i am a perfectionist and won't be truly satisfied until taper is zero but I realise I'm not getting that.

Overall i hoped this helped you to decide.
For the money....I got a lathe that needs tweaking but got quite a bit of lathe for the money with a reasonable amount of accessories. (if you get one really press the shop for extra goodies and they will keep piling them up for you....oh and get ISO bits and tools if you go carbide and NOT the chinese standard as they won't take sandvik bits etc)

No doubt about it.....if you are looking at the al330 then please spend a bit extra and get the al960B from taiwan.
I looked at the variable units like the wm280v but really it's a small chuck and the guy said they have the most comebacks due to the variable motor controller stuffing itself...everything is lighter on the lathe whereas the al320 gives you a 38mm spindle bore and a fairly heavy bed for the size.

So in the end the 320 was best for me with the space and requirements I was honest with myself I would need. (when am i going to turn something 900mm long...probably never) Most of my machining will be 12 inches or less in length. Of couse the machine is $2k less over here than the al960B and has a few less features but i had to balance the extra cost with the home hobby use I needed it for and would rather put the extra money toward a GL45 mil next.

I know there is ZERO substitute for quality but in all honesty if you need total accuracy and all the features then you are up for a LOT more money so a balance needs to be reached. Besides the more I spend on my lathe the more shoes it costs!!!LOL

Would I buy another one?? I'll let you know after I have used it for a while but if it performs ok then I see nothing wrong with it for the price. Just be careful of the QC and be prepared to twitter with it for a while to ensure longitivity and reliablity.

Cheers
Glenn