Newb Questions: Shaper

[Antman]

My son and I are just about 2 weeks away from buying machines. I am a complete novice, never really had my hands on one, but my boykie has done a year of basic shop training and held down a job he didn’t like for 3 months, and I can’t blame him, repetitive, not a safety conscious shop, strange town….
I found a small shaper for sale, English, about 200mm stoke. This machine seems like the whiskers, I did some reading on it. Is is true you can do almost anything on a shaper, that can be done on a mill? How about finish? Am I right in assuming that how a shaper works is to advance the table a distance for each stroke of the tool and at right angles to the stroke? How fine, is this advance called the feed, can this be?
Anyway I missed a private sale, at 3000 ZAR, but I think the guy who bought it is a dealer and might let it go at a profit. What do you think? If we buy a used lathe, a few 600mm Chinese only 2 years old available, we have a good start for less than I expected to pay for a new Chinese lathe.
Cheers,
Ant.

 

[tel]

Opinions are divided, but I LOVE my Douglas 10" shaper.

a: Almost anything, yes, tho' some operations are better carried out on the mill.

b: Finish, of course, depends on the tool, but can be excellent - much better that that produced by an end mill.

c: Table feed - mine is variable from 0.005" to 0.025".

The great beauty of the machine is the single point tooling, which will not only save you lots of money, but also opens the way for all sorts of simply made form tools.

And you never know - you may have to produce an internal gear one day - although there are other methods, the shaper is just the duck's guts for this!

 

[Antman]

Does the size of the table feed mean that the point of the tool must be flat to make a flat surface? Looking at some basic tutorials on the net, looks like most tools are radiused not flat? If I had a Shaper I'd want to make things with dovetail slides.

 

[Antman]

OK I see a flat looking tool for finishing cast iron but a round tool shape for light finishing cuts on steel

 

[tel]

A lot of my tooling looks more like knife tools for the lathe, only with more 'hook' on what would be the top rake. Somewhere I have a doc on tool shapes - I'll see if I can find it for you

 

[Antman]

Thanx Tel, I have already downloaded about 5 useful pdfs. The other thing I want to know and need to start planning is how do you bolt a lathe down, what height and should you have easy access to the back of the lathe? It seems to me that many lathes are against a wall. We don't have a space problem.

 

[RobWilson]

HI i used my 10" Alba shaper for just about every thing until i got a mill,i even had a surface grinding attachment for it, its just over 100 year old and still works fine and i would not part with it,now it is mainly used for keyways and internal splines

 

[Tin Falcon]

Shapers are relatively popular in the home shop. The old addage with shapers is you can make anything with them except money. They are not particularly fast for production but shapers were used in industry for many years.

Shaper cutters are ground similar to lathe tools and are ground for a variety of purposes.
I have cut dovetails on mine. With the correctly ground tool my little 7" shaper will take a 1/4 inch deep cut. I do not like pushing the old girl that hard though. When I cut the brass gib the other day i was able to get a near ground finish with no problem . If you can get a good deal they are good machines to have.
Tin

 

[Antman]

Slipped up, I am 500km from the seller. I spoke to the guy who bought the shaper and he laughed at me when I asked him to resell it to me for 4000. I'm sure time on the machine is irrelevant comparing it to time spent figuring out what or how. I really appreciate the the idea of simple tooling. I will have to do milling in the lathe and this is a whole new ballgame again, collet chuck, collets, at least endmills, a vertical slide...
Thanks for the replies. I will continue looking for a shaper but I doubt I will find one, pessimistically I suppose this sort of stuff is either hoarded or exported.
Ant

 

[arnoldb]

Ant, I don't think shapers here in our lower corner of Africa are all that common, so I suspect that anybody getting their hands on a shaper will rather let go of their KWV wine & brandy collection rather than the shaper... I have yet to see a real one I can touch.

As to the rest of the kit - collet chuck, collets, endmills, - You will need that irrespective of a lathe or a milling machine. If you can, buy both a mill and lathe that can share the equipment; you might have to search, but it might be worthwhile.

I don't have a collet chuck or collets or a mill yet, so have had to find alternate methods for doing things - though not always satisfactory, but anything is possible - just depends on how much you think & how hard you try.

As to tooling (end mills, reamers, drills, taps, dies etc.) - I don't think you can go wrong by buying "our local" Somta brand - I KNOW a e.g. single size set of their taps costs as much as more available "imported" multi-size kits, but I feel they supply excellent quality bits. They also do a complete range of HSS blanks at a reasonable price; it is really feasible (for me at least) to buy blanks and grind cutting bits as necessary.

Regards, Arnold

PS: I mentioned a brand-name here. I use this brand , as well as other local and imported brands, PURELY as a PERSONAL preference. The reader of this post is most welcome to use his/her own choice of brands of tooling.

 

[Antman]

Well well, logged into local JunkMail and what do you know free on the net, I paid R15 for a weekly paper copy last week. Updated continuosly with a search for year old ads too. AND ... AND I found a 7" Atlas. On a 4 month old ad. Guy says it works fine, only reason he's selling is a 10" machine taking up space. This little machine is a heavy little brute, what about 200 lbs? I'm sure some of you are familiar with machine. Is it an oldie but goody? 7" seems a bit small, I want to make some things with slides and screws, but hey we are only starting. Is their tilt in the table? What would a good working example be worth in UK or USA. I'm paying about 4K in thin flat Rands, he's keeping it for me and we'll get it in Johannesburg, 500km away this week or next, depending on my other missions all on 1 trip. Hope it and a lathe, 2 sons and a friend don't break the back of the Kombi.
Ant

 

[Tin Falcon]

Antman :
I bought my atlas several years ago at that time I saw shapers of that size selling for $200 -650 USD. There is a guy on e-bay asking almost $1200 buy it now must be gold plated. In your part of the world shapers being a little rare 4k ZAr is probably a decent deal. There are manuals for the atlas available on line. one word of caution in order to rase or lower the table you need to loosen the gib bolts for the table the table height is not meant as a feed.
Tin

 

[tel]

ONYA Antman! I'm sure you will like it once you get it. Shapers somehow seem to be a gentler machine than either lathe or mill (except for the bank of 'em I ran years ago for a well known scaffolding firm - they ran at top speed, max cut all day every day, and never stopped screamin')

 

[Jones]

I also have a Douglas 10" Shaper ($600 ebay) and have to admit that I haven't really used it very much. It works perfectly, but I find it takes AGES to set up the table support perfectly square, and then to lower the table down ever so slightly onto the support so it's square to the ram's travel.
Does anyone have an easy way to do this? I don't feel comfortable using it without a table support, so I've been avoiding using it because of the time taken to set up. The time it takes to cut doesn't bother me, but the setup time is off the chart.

 

[Tin Falcon]

I find the shaper relaxing compared to the mill but I have extreme respect for the machine the ram could do some serious damage if it hits you .Also you do not have to chase the down feed on a mill. I find the setup on the atlas to be relatively fast and easy.
Tin

 

[tel]

I also have a Douglas 10" Shaper ($600 ebay) and have to admit that I haven't really used it very much. It works perfectly, but I find it takes AGES to set up the table support perfectly square, and then to lower the table down ever so slightly onto the support so it's square to the ram's travel.
Does anyone have an easy way to do this? I don't feel comfortable using it without a table support, so I've been avoiding using it because of the time taken to set up. The time it takes to cut doesn't bother me, but the setup time is off the chart.

I rarely set up the table support - just work on the table as is - mainly with the vise. BUT you do have to limit the depth of cut a bit this way. Hey, we're not gettin' paid by the hour, and even if we were ......

 

[Antman]

The more I read about shapers the better they seem. I can't wait to get mine home and see what I can do with it. Any ideas for a first project in the shaper, something to get me used to the machine, something useful when complete?
Ant

 

[RobWilson]

The more I read about shapers the better they seem. I can't wait to get mine home and see what I can do with it. Any ideas for a first project in the shaper, something to get me used to the machine, something useful when complete?
Ant

Hi Ant , What about some VEE blocks
Rob

 

[Antman]

Thanks Rob, good suggestion, which brings me to another point, where to get the stock. I'll be quite tapped out, hoping to come home with a lathe as well next week. I want to use scrap as much as possible and in my little town that limits me to mostly automotive junk. A faceplate for the lathe is on the cards, using a brake disc. The auto engineers up the road throw away some big truck cranks on occasion. Are there solid blocks to be got from cranks or are there oilways drilled most places?

 

[RobWilson]

wagon/ car flywheel would make a better face plate, still thinking ??? ;D