silver solder?

[davedfsme]

Oops . . . the cast iron reference should have gone to "Goldstar 31". My apologies, please consider the comment re-directed.

DJD

 

[davedfsme]

Skyline 1,

I have to apologize . . . you used the exact same "cleanliness is next to Godliness" that I attributed to "Yo' Mama". My mama had the same to say, but to the best of my knowledge, she never did any silver brazing . . .

DJD

 

[pete]

Pete,

Yup. I am completely serious. Only as a pre-treatment, to remove oil-based crud, followed by scrubbing to remove oxides and brake wash residues.

Who said anything about cast iron?

Anyone who applies heat to volatile compounds is asking for any manner of combustible troubles. As a pre-treat, the majority of the materials used for cleaning the parts will have evaporated long before any serious heat is applied. We weren't talking about welding "wet" components here. You still need to scrub the parts back to bare metal before fluxing. You might want to consider that the fluxes used for silver brazing are in themselves often flouride compounds, and the alloys used have historically contained cadmium as a wetting agent. This is not a "healthy" process to start with, and "adequate ventilation" is a prerequisite.

But, you may have a point that I am not aware of. I also smoke cigarettes, ride motorcycles, drink whiskey, eat fast food (occasionally), and am still alive. The biggest problem I have with silver brazing is using just enough alloy to form a meniscus fillet, mine always seem to have a little run of excess somewhere or another.

Regards,

DJD

DJD,
I'm more than well aware of the need for good ventilation while silver soldering. I've worked with, am rated for, and have used the Scott self contained air packs in more than a few industrial enviroments. I also drink, smoked up till my first heart attack, speed at times, and have hauled and used high explosives many times. I've spent my whole working life doing some very dangerous jobs. But I knew enough and had the correct training to take most of those calculated risks. I've sat through hundreds of industrial safety films, and a couple about this product. For now I'm still alive too despite more than a few fools trying to change that status.

There's many many new members here that don't come from that back round and don't know enough, or may not even know about the online MSDS data sheets to double check some of the thankfully rare misinformed and uneducated crap that gets posted on forums like this. Do the research, even a few missed or unnoticed drops of that brake fluid can and will kill you. To knowingly post a reccomendation of it's use without any warning at all is more than inexcuseable. Especially so when there's far safer and easier to use products that will do the exact same job better. This is a hobby for me, It's SUPPOSED to be enjoyable. Having to make posts like this isn't.

Pete

 

[skyline1]

Skyline 1,

I have to apologize . . . you used the exact same "cleanliness is next to Godliness" that I attributed to "Yo' Mama". My mama had the same to say, but to the best of my knowledge, she never did any silver brazing . . .

DJD

No apology required mate it's a point that should be repeated. It's a golden rule with silver soldering (or soft soldering for that matter) "get it clean, scrupulously clean"

Actually my mum did do a bit of silver soldering or at least assisted my dad and I with it.

Whilst on the subject those plastic fibre cleaning mats used for washing up are quite good for cleaning components prior to silver soldering. When mum had one go missing she usually knew who had pinched it.

Also very useful are the abrasive blocks used for cleaning Printed Circuit Boards prior to soldering electronic components in. Indeed they are designed for just this job.

Regards Mark

 

[davedfsme]

DJD,
I'm more than well aware of the need for good ventilation while silver soldering. I've worked with, am rated for, and have used the Scott self contained air packs in more than a few industrial enviroments. I also drink, smoked up till my first heart attack, speed at times, and have hauled and used high explosives many times. I've spent my whole working life doing some very dangerous jobs. But I knew enough and had the correct training to take most of those calculated risks. I've sat through hundreds of industrial safety films, and a couple about this product. For now I'm still alive too despite more than a few fools trying to change that status.

There's many many new members here that don't come from that back round and don't know enough, or may not even know about the online MSDS data sheets to double check some of the thankfully rare misinformed and uneducated crap that gets posted on forums like this. Do the research, even a few missed or unnoticed drops of that brake fluid can and will kill you. To knowingly post a reccomendation of it's use without any warning at all is more than inexcuseable. Especially so when there's far safer and easier to use products that will do the exact same job better. This is a hobby for me, It's SUPPOSED to be enjoyable. Having to make posts like this isn't.

Pete

Pete,

OK, fair enough. I strongly agree that you make a very valid point about educating oneself about the materials you intend to use. That is only common sense, which unfortunately, is becoming less common . . .

I googled "Phosgene", and I see exactly why you are so concerned. Anyone else curious? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene

I should have been more specific than "brake cleaner". I remember the stuff I think you are referring to, the stuff with 1,1,1 tri-chlorethylene? These days, at least around here, I wouldn't know where to find it anymore. The stuff I use is "Non-chlorinated brake parts cleaner", 60-100% Heptane (n-heptane) according to it's MSDS. Extremely flammable, creates a flash fire hazard as it evaporates. Still not a "safe" material to have around sources of ignition, causes organ damage if inhaled etc. No hazardous phosgene decomp products are formed, as there is no chlorine in it.

Now, if somebody found a rusty old spray bomb while cleaning out Grandpa's garage, they really ought to figure out what's in it before using it for anything. A lot of hazardous chemicals were on the market in the "good ol' days" that have been completely pulled from the market due to environmental and health concerns. Different countries have different regulations as well. In some places, you may be commonly able to buy stuff that is completely restricted elsewhere.

DJD

 

[davedfsme]

No apology required mate it's a point that should be repeated. It's a golden rule with silver soldering (or soft soldering for that matter) "get it clean, scrupulously clean"

Actually my mum did do a bit of silver soldering or at least assisted my dad and I with it.

Whilst on the subject those plastic fibre cleaning mats used for washing up are quite good for cleaning components prior to silver soldering. When mum had one go missing she usually knew who had pinched it.

Also very useful are the abrasive blocks used for cleaning Printed Circuit Boards prior to soldering electronic components in. Indeed they are designed for just this job.

Regards Mark

Mark,

I know the scrub pads you are referring to, but the cheap domestic ones from the supermarket have an industrial counterpart which are far better, IMHO.

I am not sure of the rules on this forum regarding product plugging. If this is too cryptic, PM me.

There is a Mining and Manufacturing company in Minnesota that makes abrasive pads (and MANY other things, including Cellophane tape used for packaging).
These pads would make a Scotsman brighten up when he sees how well they work.

There are a variety of different grades, color-coded to indicate grit sizes. White is the finest, then light grey, maroon, dark grey as about as coarse as you want for hand work. If you only want one to try, I'd suggest that the maroon ones are a pretty good all-purpose grade.

I have no financial interest in this company, I am merely a satisfied customer.

DJD

 

[skyline1]

DJD

I think I know the "little" outfit you are talking about. As a sound engineer at one time I should do. Used plenty of their product in recording studios, miles of it in fact.

They make those PCB cleaning blocks too I believe. I'm another satisfied customer good gear.

Regards Mark

 

[goldstar31]

There is a bit of 'wandering' going on. It's all very well talking about Grandpa or Auntie Fanny's experiences or whether one pan scrub is better than that of a company who is only paying less than 3% to its shareholders.

Has the poster learned anything from all this?

 

[skyline1]

There is a bit of 'wandering' going on. It's all very well talking about Grandpa or Auntie Fanny's experiences or whether one pan scrub is better than that of a company who is only paying less than 3% to its shareholders.

Has the poster learned anything from all this?

I would hope the poster has learnt quite a lot but I don't know what a company is paying it's shareholders has to do with silver soldering.

Regards Mark

 

[goldstar31]

Oddly it does have a lot to do with the subject. It determines where a company is going to end up or where it is going to knock out the weak products or people or whatever.

It might determine things that will end up in China or the Far East.

Now there's a topic to flog.

The Goldstar is the Star of India or Pakistan as it now is.

I hope that I haven't killed too many sacred cows that might be moo-ing about

 

[davedfsme]

There is a bit of 'wandering' going on. It's all very well talking about Grandpa or Auntie Fanny's experiences or whether one pan scrub is better than that of a company who is only paying less than 3% to its shareholders.

Has the poster learned anything from all this?

Goldstar,

OK, we all "wandered" a bit, but not "off-topic". Methods and materials used for cleaning parts, and dangers inherent in using wrong materials . . . risk of death is important, no?

Let's recap, then we can carry on from here:

Don't use use "Grandpa's" aerosol brake cleaner on parts which will be heated. If the chlorinated solvents don't poison you, the propellant pressurizing the can might (CFCs).

As far as the scrub pads go, "Auntie Fanny's" pot scrubber might work OK, but the industrial pads with abrasives embedded in their matrix are far more effective. (BTW, they would scratch the heck out of Auntie's pots.) They might cost more per pad, but when you get more use out of them with less "elbow grease", is that not helpful information?

Different fluxes are required for different applications. Manufacturers know this, that is part of why you need to read up on what you are doing.

Adequate ventilation and personal protection is important. Fumes from this process can kill you, quickly, or slowly, depending on your choice of materials.

In this light, the all-important message about actually using the established MSDS system was brought to the forefront yet again. Pete was quite correct in pointing out my error in suggesting simply "brake cleaner" as a solvent, as some people may actually have access to the stuff I personally consider to be "old-school".

Is that "wandering", or simply "covering the bases"? When you consider the various viewpoints and the international nature of a forum such as this, I don't feel that there have been that many wasted words. At the same time, I personally have had to clarify several of my statements. I apologize for putting mouth in motion before putting brain in gear.

What's next? Anyone else have anything positive to add?

DJD

 

[davedfsme]

Oddly it does have a lot to do with the subject. It determines where a company is going to end up or where it is going to knock out the weak products or people or whatever.

It might determine things that will end up in China or the Far East.

Now there's a topic to flog.

The Goldstar is the Star of India or Pakistan as it now is.

I hope that I haven't killed too many sacred cows that might be moo-ing about

Who's wandering now?

 

[goldstar31]

Who's wandering now?

Me but :-
I. I can weld and have professional qualifications in both engineering and accountancy
2. I still have a fully equipped workshop
3. I have actually taught it- to people who left school at 14
4. I have an invitation to re-vist HongKong
5. I have the wherewithal but not in 3M

Perhaps this isn't quite what you expected? Tough!

 

[davedfsme]

My turn to ramble . . .

My mentor, Jim Mandy, passed away in '07 (at 85) of cancer. He started out building instrument panels for Spitfires in WWII, became an artillery Master Sergeant, was a gunsmith after the war, and worked in a university hospital as an instrument maker, where he was credited with assisting in developing several advances in radiation therapy. This is the man who taught me to silver braze. Jim retired in '85, and built Martin Evans' "William" as a "rookie" model engineering project. A Wallis & Steevens road roller followed, and I was assisting him on a 3" scale Foden at the time of his death.

Jim made his own flux for silver brazing on copper, with boric acid in a brown glass bottle from the chemist, borax from the grocery store, and something (?) in a prescription jar. This was all mixed with fondue fuel (methyl hydrate), as he had found that it gave better results than distilled water when heating from "pasty". His flux was comparable to the H&H "Handy-Flux" (which contains potassium fluoride) when used on copper, but he insisted on commercial flux for use on steel. I wish I knew what was in that other bottle . . . and where he got it.

Now, Jim's methods would give the health and safety guys fits. In a different time and place, they worked for him. We tackled the Foden boiler with a weed-burner (Tiger-torch) and an oxy-aceytlene "rose-bud". At this point, Jim should have been, (and sometimes was) in a wheelchair, but he was far too "ornery" to accept that he was disabled. We didn't get the Foden boiler to pressure test stage before he died, but I did get to be "his hands" for several procedures on far larger assemblies than I have tackled on my own. The workshop, and contents, were liquidated by the family without any notice to his friends . . .

Long story short, there are many ways to get a given job done. "Grandpa's method" worked for him, but may have contributed to his death. Educate yourself before trying anything.

DJD

 

[goldstar31]

I am intrigued! As far as I know, Spits were never built in Canada and I am unable to recognise the rank of Artillery Master Sergeant( plumber) and being involved as an instrument 'basher' on Spit Panels. Unless the whole panjandrum took place outside of Canada, I doubt that there was no more than a handful of Spits in Canada. They would be in RAF hands training British pilots after they got their wings! My old neighbour did train in Canada to go onto Seafires but he was flying in action off carrier decks in Korea.
There certainly are two Spitfires in Canada now. One is a 'civvy job' now but rejoiced in the serial SL-721 with JM*R and she was a Goldstar 'girl' in duckegg blue and flown by Jimmy Robb and Arthur Fane De Salis- Goldstar Boss at the time- but at RAF Hendon.

You see- I was there. It's engine basher is still alive but a mere Leading Aircraftsman.Actually our Goldstars Association got some photos of our Percival Proctors from Wings of Canada who have or had the 16E. It's a bit confused because we had a 14, a LF16E and a Mark 9- and my memory at 82 is a tad shakey.

I have no doubt however that your old mentors 'secret stuff' was an acid etch cleaner mixed with boric acid.
However, I can tell you that my wife never used anything other than borax and water and she went on to become not only a Dentist but held a Diploma in Orthodontics, RCS England as well as a Fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh.
Going back to her earlier BDS Dunelm days which were 50 years ago, she was with the author of GH Thomas's Model Engineers Workshop Manual which contains a deal of information on silver soldering. If there had been anything amiss with George's techniques, he would have changed it.
My daughter is also Doctor in Orthodontics and she doesn't seem to do other than spot weld and stick things with glue and charges enough to buy us all out

 

[davedfsme]

I am intrigued! As far as I know, Spits were never built in Canada and I am unable to recognise the rank of Artillery Master Sergeant( plumber) and being involved as an instrument 'basher' on Spit Panels. Unless the whole panjandrum took place outside of Canada, I doubt that there was no more than a handful of Spits in Canada. They would be in RAF hands training British pilots after they got their wings! My old neighbour did train in Canada to go onto Seafires but he was flying in action off carrier decks in Korea.
There certainly are two Spitfires in Canada now. One is a 'civvy job' now but rejoiced in the serial SL-721 with JM*R and she was a Goldstar 'girl' in duckegg blue and flown by Jimmy Robb and Arthur Fane De Salis- Goldstar Boss at the time- but at RAF Hendon.

You see- I was there. It's engine basher is still alive but a mere Leading Aircraftsman.Actually our Goldstars Association got some photos of our Percival Proctors from Wings of Canada who have or had the 16E. It's a bit confused because we had a 14, a LF16E and a Mark 9- and my memory at 82 is a tad shakey.

I have no doubt however that your old mentors 'secret stuff' was an acid etch cleaner mixed with boric acid.
However, I can tell you that my wife never used anything other than borax and water and she went on to become not only a Dentist but held a Diploma in Orthodontics, RCS England as well as a Fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh.
Going back to her earlier BDS Dunelm days which were 50 years ago, she was with the author of GH Thomas's Model Engineers Workshop Manual which contains a deal of information on silver soldering. If there had been anything amiss with George's techniques, he would have changed it.
My daughter is also Doctor in Orthodontics and she doesn't seem to do other than spot weld and stick things with glue and charges enough to buy us all out

Jim immigrated to Canada in '54. His mum's house was just east of London during the war, but a buzz bomb fell short or was shot down before reaching the city. Apparently, the kitchen table ended up in the basement.

I have obviously screwed up in remembering his rank. Jim was apprenticed at the works building Spitfires, but signed up for front line service. Due to his metal-working experience, he got redirected into armament repair. That experience led him to set up shop here in Canada as a gunsmith, as a sideline to his work at the hospital.

If you are curious, his full name was Colin James Mandy.

But, enough about Jim. We were speaking about silver brazing . . .

 

[kf2qd]

To clean oil from parts I would use a detergent like Dawn Dish detergent in hot (boiling water) and then a couple rinses in clean boiling water. All this in disassembled form. Parts will be clean from oil and will rust rather readily. If you try to clean in assembly, all you willl do is clean the outside parts and leave the inside oily.

 

[digiex-chris]

How much dish detergent? From my experience doing dishes, a little goes a long way in making the bubbles go everywhere. I imagine putting some in boiling water will froth like crazy!

 

[goldstar31]

We have gone off at another tangent. We don't need to teach our carefully machined part to swim on bath night, we only want to stick it together perhaps running a tiny fillet of solder to achieve the result. The classic way is still to pickle it- with something that will not only clean but etch it- to marginally make an alloy of the silver solder INTO the steel or brass parts.

This is where this internet thing lack of detail, pisses an old fella off. The silver solder upon melting on the metal- changes its melting point having lost the some silver as mentioned earlier.

I think that I'll leave it at that---------------------intravenous injection of strong coffee!

 

[goldstar31]

Coffee consumed, the leaves around the castle's portcullis are too damp to remove so I thought that I'd spend some of my loot before the family and the Government get equal halves! So I went to John Stevenson's excellent site 'Home workshop' that ads goodies but also has wise comments .
There is presently a large contribution about cleaning 'machinery' which expands my humble screed. Read it, it is good!