Rivetting

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Peter Moyes

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I have a number of 20 gauge brass plates which I intend to assemble into the tender of a five inch gauge locomotive. The plates are rivetted by means of 3/64 inch brass snap head rivets using 1/4 inch 20 gauge brass angle. Can anyone give me some advice on the best way of applying these many rivets, some of them in very restricted spaces between the tank walls of the tender? It's just that I have not done this before and I do not want to waste expensive brass on mistakes.
Thanks
 
For a start I would suggest you change to copper rivits as they are easier to form.

You will likely have to make up a small rivit snap that can then be placed into a hole in various shapes of steel to support the rivit on one side and then use a standard snap on the outside.

Do practice on some scrap first to get the correct amount of shank protruding, start with 1.6 times the rivit dia and work from there.

If the tender is to be sealed by soft solder then tin all the joints first.

J
 
I 'cheated' mine in. 1/16" shank, I drilled all the holes (used Clecos on the joins) then pressed the rivet in, sometimes had to tap it in with a small hammer - if I mashed it I'd just replace it. After I had a bunch of rivets in I'd run soft solder down the line from the back - I needed to solder anyway to seal it and enough would wick through that it holds the rivets even where I machined the back flush.

You need a pretty big iron - I tried some smaller ones (100W) but the best work was using a 300W Hexacon iron and "Ruby Red" flux (basically a killed spirits flux). This was using galvanized, your experience might be different, but I managed to get something like 2400 rivets in place this way with only a few oddballs in the end.
 
Thanks rkepler and JasonB very useful advice. What is Clecos? I suspect that since mine is all brass, it could be a different experience to galvanised steel.

Peter Moyes
 
They are small "clips" that fit through the rivit hole to hold the temporarilly hold the parts together. But small screws and nuts work just as well.

J
 
Thanks rkepler and JasonB very useful advice. What is Clecos? I suspect that since mine is all brass, it could be a different experience to galvanised steel.

Like Jason said Clecos are pins used to hold sheet metal aligned while riveting - they're spring loaded with a clip in back that's held by special pair of pliers while the pin end is being inserted and once through simply releases the body. While you might be able to use machine fasteners I sure wouldn;t want to - you can apply a Cleco in about the time it would take to apply a push pin.

But after that endorsement I think 1/16" might be as small as they make them. There are some side grip clamps from Cleco, they wouldn't keep the holes aligned as well but they'd keep the sheet metal together - perhaps some dowel pins or spring pins would maintain alignment without opening up the holes.

As for brass rather than GS - it will conduct the heat away a lot faster but I think that a 250 to 300W soldering iron will work fine. I wouldn't go smaller.
 
Thanks fellows,
Clamping and clipping small work is always a problem. I have run across this problem in wood in dolls houses. But metal is different!! I had thought I would start it off in a vice but that, again, will become a problem when I am generating a narrow box section. The interior partitions of the tender attach to a full width/length sole plate. So, at some point I run the risk of shutting myself out of the work when trying to do things at the bottom of the two side tanks.
Good point about the soldering iron. I presume that for tinning up brass plate, ordinary flux cored wire solder will do the job if the soldering iron is powerful enough??
Peter Moyes
 
Clamping and clipping small work is always a problem. I have run across this problem in wood in dolls houses. But metal is different!! I had thought I would start it off in a vice but that, again, will become a problem when I am generating a narrow box section. The interior partitions of the tender attach to a full width/length sole plate. So, at some point I run the risk of shutting myself out of the work when trying to do things at the bottom of the two side tanks.

Consider some of the cleco side grip clamps as in this auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150889055846

Good point about the soldering iron. I presume that for tinning up brass plate, ordinary flux cored wire solder will do the job if the soldering iron is powerful enough??

I think you're better off with a zinc chloride flux (killed spirits in the UK) such as the brand "Rubyfluid" and 50/50 solder. I apply broadly with an acid brush so it wicks everywhere before the solder is applied, then walk the soldering iron down the edge as the heat preceeds it by a little bit. All of what you need is common in the stained glass or sheet metal worlds.

On my 8 gallon tender with about 1800 copper rivets I think I used a pound of solder, and it only needed touchup on one spot to make it completely watertight.
 
I agree with JasonB about copper rivets they are much easier to form (brass ones tend to split) and easier to get hold of

You will probably amass quite a collection of rivet snaps and dollies by the time you have finished as you usually have to make them specially E.G. for getting into awkward corners. but they can be made quite easily from bits of mild steel (or old bolts).

As for tinning the joints, Killed Spirits (Zinc Chloride) is ideal or Fluxite I think is still available. both of these need to be cleaned off afterwards as they are both a little corrosive (being active fluxes). but failing this I have very successfully soldered brass with electrical resin flux. Easily obtainable as they sell it for P.C.B. and electrical work.

As the solder is only a caulking and I presume not subject to great heat, you could use the solder paste used in the electronics industry for Surface Mounted Devices. (search for SMD solder paste). This is a mixture of fine solder particles and flux and simply needs to be pasted on where required and heated with a blowtorch (they use hot air guns in electronics). It is fairly inexpensive and very useful where you can't get in with a big soldering iron. And for this you will need a big one about 250 - 300 Watts I would think.

My father was a dab hand at small riveting and has passed on a couple of tips, you may already know them but here goes,

Copper rivets should be supplied annealled but often aren't so it is usually a good idea to do so before use. simply heat them to cherry red and drop them in cold water. This makes them lovely and soft and easy to work and also removes any oxide or protective coating on them. You can also do it with brass rivets but it's not as effective and you should take care not to overheat them.

When you are riveting don't start at one end and rivet along as the tolerances can build up and at the other end either the holes won't line up or your job starts looking like a banana. do the ends first, then the middle, then between them and keep subdividing until all the rivets are in.

Try to make all the components first and rivet as a last operation, this gives you the chance to do a "dry run" and spot any snags. As you point out Peter it is very easy to "paint yourself into a corner" doing this sort of thing. There is a tale that a riveter was killed during the building of the Titanic by doing just this. He riveted himself into a sealed compartment and died before he could be rescued.

Do the tricky ones first like tight corners and the like, this limits the amount of work and material wasted if things don't go well. I'm sure it will go well but riveting has many pitfalls to trap the unwary, I've fallen in most of them but that's how we learn.

When you start riveting up just use a few strategic rivets as "tacks" and place a thin piece of paper between the joint surfaces. Cigarette papers are ideal (red Rizlas) and hammer the rivets down gently this will make the joint flexible and everything can be checked and adjusted a little, the paper can be dissolved out with hot water and the rivets hammered tight afterwards. This also makes it easier to get the rivets out if you have to (hopefully you won't have to but Murphy's law is always waiting to bite you)

Hope this is of help

Regards Mark
 
Thanks Mark and rkepler,
That's all brilliant advice. I think I might try using the SMD solder paste, if I can get it in NZ but I am sure I can and heating it to melt with my gas torch on the outside after rivetting is complete. I had NOT thought about the banana problem, so that was timely advice.
I can hardly imagine what doing 1800 of them would be like. You'd be a real expert at the end of that!
Peter Moyes
 
Glad to be of help Peter, here are a couple of pics of one of my boiler casings if you need a little inspiration for your foray into into the magical world of riveting. Pimples as my father sometimes calls them.

These are 1/16" iron rivets done by my dad before age and poor health prevented him from pursuing his hobby. The real tricky bit was the smokebox/chimney base as some of the rivets are in really tight corners.

I agree with you about rkepler's mammoth 1800 rivet job probably seeing rivets in his sleep after that lot, and had arms like popeye, respect to him for taking on that one.

DSC_0073.jpgDSC_0074.jpg

Regards Mark
 
I agree with you about rkepler's mammoth 1800 rivet job probably seeing rivets in his sleep after that lot, and had arms like popeye, respect to him for taking on that one.

Mark - like I said I "cheated" them in, the big job was a tender water tank and an oil tank on a 1.5" scale Shay. Here's a (bad) picture of the tender water tank as finished:

shay_tender_tank_rivets.jpg


The rivets are (mostly) simply pushed through 1/16 holes and soft soldered. The vertical lines have some angle inside to stiffen the sheet metal.

I didn't mention that I made 2 of the sides, the first ones were short (my fault for not checking the measurement). I think I was a bit less practised but a couple of shots of them:

shay_tender_tank_rivets_1.jpg


(this line was done with a 100W iron, note the poor solder work:

shay_tender_tank_rivets_2.jpg


But really it's not the same as actually placing a rivet, snapping it, setting it and moving to the next.
 
Thank you very much Mark and rkepler,
Very telling photos indeed. Much to think about. But I'm about to get cracking - just waiting on the rivets being delivered. I think I might close this thread now and come back later when I am a bit wiser through experience!!!
Peter Moyes
 
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