mini-lathe - getting it right...maybe

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Hi Zee, did you say steam boat now I'm interested what size? what type of engine? but be very careful once you've built one your addicted for life :big: Iv recently started on a build of Basil Harley's Victoria but its going slowly
best wishes Frazer
 
Robert! How are you? What are you working on these days?
And no...I won't come over and dig your garage out. I just moved my garage back out of my basement. I want nothing to do with garages.

Frazer...I don't know what size nor what kind of engine. At this point I have no idea how to size a boat to an engine. I'm hoping to learn some things at Cabin Fever.

Do you have a thread going on this? Give up a link please.

I found this...some nice detail work...note the shovel and refreshments.

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/viewtopic.php?p=483978
 
zeeprogrammer said:
I've been struggling with that too. But better safe than sorry.

My thinking went this way the longest ;D ...

When I mount the vise, I square it by moving the table left/right with a DTI against one face of the vise. Cutting left/right should remain square.

But if I cut in/out...would it not be at something other than 90 degree to the vise?

I need to continue thinking about this...but it's time for supper and her food is better than any conversation I could have.


Hi Zee,

I think, it would not matter if it is out of alignment as far as (x, y ) table movements, are concerned,
but if you look at it in a worst case analysis, by picturing it way out to the side, the x,y and z, movements are not affected, Bridgeport mills allow the horizontal pivot of the head, to reach farther on the table for milling and drilling.

But if you should want to tilt it at an angle on it's pivot, then the cut produced will be out of alignment.
The pivot needs to be in line with the x, axis, to cut true to table movements.

 
I think I got it. It's the usual problem I have in understanding what is moving in relationship to what.

So long as the two table axes are square...the left/right and in/out cuts will be square to each other. The position of the spindle itself in relationship to the table doesn't change the relationship of left/right to in/out.

By the way...I've avoided the use of x/y/z. I still don't have a handle on that.

Oh well let's try...

Mill:
[EDIT: oops...]
x = in/out travel (+ towards you)
y = left/right travel (+ to the right of you)
x = left/right travel (+ to the right of you)
y = in/out travel (+ away from you)
z = up/down (spindle) travel (+ to the heavens)

Lathe:
[EDIT: oops again]
x = in/out travel (diameter) (+ towards you, increasing diameter with cutter between you and material)
x = in/out trvel (diameter) (+ away from you)
y = I dunno (and therefore, + I dunno)
z = left/right travel (spindle) travel (+ uh +...uh...I dunno)

Enlightenment would be appreciated.

Anyone who says "What? You been at this two years and you still don't know?" I will hunt down, take by the collar, stick my face in theirs, and say "Yep."...

with fetid breathe.




 
Hey Zee,

X direction is to your left and right. Right is +X and left is -X.

Y then is toward (-Y) you and away (+Y) from you.

I do like that boat (link), a lot. That's a level I'll never get to, no doubt.
 
Rats. You're right. I got the mill x/y mixed up. I knew that when I was writing it...even when I reread it. Funny how things stick.

However, the +/- of Y is a surprise. I was working off memory from when I designed robot controllers. I finally found a couple of links though...

http://www.efunda.com/processes/machining/images/mill/millCNCaxes1.gif

This next one was confusing...

http://www.efunda.com/processes/machining/images/mill/spd_rotary_table_2.gif

They have the cranks labeled correctly but the xyz symbol doesn't seem right.

In any case, I will edit my post. Thanks Dennis.
 
Troutsqueezer said:
Now, I'm only a Caveman Lawyer (feeble SNL reference) and a newbie machinist but I'm trying to think how, if indeed the shaft is not at 90 degrees (horizontal) to the table, that manifests itself to the accuracy of milling.

I don't think it matters. The X/Y table is what needs to be square with each other. The fore/aft and left/right tilt of the Z axis column in relation to the table will matter. So will any similar tilt in how the head is attached to the column. That said, getting it as close as you can with the DI won't hurt anything.
 
On the bandsaw, presumably the teeth are gone from the blade? In that case I'm guessing you stuck the angle it in the bandsaw vise with a flat down, which leads to cutting a very thin section on the upright leg, which strips teeth off the bandsaw blade..
 
Carl, good to hear you finally found your tools ;)

I agree with Robert after having had a look; the only time the horizontal alignment of that mounting will come into play is when you pivot the mill head away from vertical, and that will only have a tiny influence; but worth remembering if/when you do it one day. I've rarely seen someone posting photos where they use a mill like yours with the head pivoted though.

As to your band saw blade, like Shred said; it will do that if you have a low tooth-count blade on thin metal - or if the cutting downforce is too big. You want at least three to five teeth from the blade in contact in the saw slot at the same time - and the less the teeth you have in contact, the lighter the saw's downforce must be; usually thats adjustable by tensioning up a spring on the side or on the pivot base. For thin materials I just "cheat" by lightly counteracting the downforce by pulling upwards with a finger on the handle while the saw is cutting. It also makes for more square cuts in the vertical plane; you might find your saw cuts thick stock pretty squarely, but with thin stock it wants to deflect off vertical if the downforce is too high.

Regards, Arnold
 
Hi Zee, that's the one sorry no build thread at the moment .The gentleman who owned that boat kindly send me a copy of the build articles and the plans came from My Hobby Store .They also sell a vac formed hull but its very thin and i like to build from scratch wasn't shure about posting a model boat on this site?.If you should want any info about her just shout
best wishes Frazer
 
Troutsqueezer said:
X direction is to your left and right. Right is +X and left is -X.

Y then is toward (-Y) you and away (+Y) from you.

With +X to the right and +Y away that makes the +Z axis of a right-handed coordinate system point upwards (Z is vector cross product of X and Y) which is a bit counterintuitive. Making +Y point toward you makes +Z point downward which is the way the quill moves when putting on a cut.
 
Thanks winkmlj.

Thanks shred and Arnold. I think you're right about the number of teeth being too few on the material. (It was a 14 tpi blade.) I'd forgotten about that. I had tried mounting the angle down flat...but that didn't work. It didn't occur to me to use some spare bar to hold it in. I ended up mounting it like an upside down 'V'. Maybe not the thing to do. Given the problem of sawing thin stuff, it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

Thanks Frazer. I may very get back to you on that boat.

We discuss and show our display stands don't we? ;D I for one have no problem seeing a boat build...particularly if there's an engine build along with it.

Thanks Marv. Now I'm confused again. I don't mean to beat this to death...but here goes...

Right Hand Rule
I thought I was taught to use the index to point in +X...but I see references to use the thumb to point in +X. It doesn't matter though so long as you go in the order of thumb-index-middle or index-middle-thumb or even middle-thumb-index.

So when facing the mill...

+X to the right
+Y into the mill
+Z going up to the spindle

When facing the lathe...

+X into the lathe
+Y down
+Z going towards to the spindle (just like the mill)

Which means I got my earlier post about +X and the lathe wrong.
 
mklotz said:
Z is vector cross product of X and Y which is a bit counter intuitive. Making +Y point toward you makes +Z point downward

IMHO this is one of the stumbling blocks to understanding 3D Cad. I'm still stumbling along at lesson 58 of 195. ::)

Best Regards
Bob
 
Obviously, you can define the coordinate system any way you wish. However, you'll eliminate one more potential entanglemnent (ie, source of error) if you stick with a right-handed system since that's the standard in all of mathematics.

It seems more natural to me if the +Z axis on the mill points down (the working direction of the tool), hence my choice of X and Y above.

Similarly on the lathe. As on the mill, the chuck spins CCW, so the spin vector points out of the chuck. Pick +X and +Y to preserve this relationship. I would be inclined to make +X away from the operator (ie, the way you put cut on) and +Y up.

For Zee et al...

The right hand rule. Using your right hand, orient the extended index finger along +X. Extend the middle finger perpendicular to the index and align it along +Y. Now, the extended thumb, perpendicular to the XY plane, will point in the +Z direction of a right-handed coordinate system.

In mathematical terms, +Z is the vector cross product of +X into +Y.
 
:big: - I like being able to make up my own coordinate system - I stayed quiet so far about that...
Like Marv, for the mill, I prefer +Z going downwards. And +Y moving away from me. But I prefer +X incrementing from right to left...
This leaves positive in-feed on all handles on all axes of my mill in a clockwise direction ::)
 
Not being narcissistic here...for me it's all about 'z'. :big:

I guess I got used to coordinate systems where '+z' is always up.
And while there has been some change over the years with respect to that...I still like to think it is...or can be. ;D

As Marv said, 'you can define the coordinate system any way you wish'. I'm still using the right-handed rule...I'm just placing 'z' where it feels right and that puts 'y' going the 'other way'. I admit though it doesn't feel right with the lathe.

On a side note...when I worked with computer graphics, it was also weird that 'y' went from top to down. 'x' went intuitively left to right. 'z' was depth so it made sense it went into the screen. For a right-handed system, the meant 'y' had to go from top to down.
 
All depends on your perspective I guess. In chip design, wrt CAD, fabs (foundaries) and assembly houses, +Z is up and +Y is away from you. Everything's relative. But then, in chip/package design they still mix microns and mils interchangeably on the same design. Talk about confusing.
 
If I keep reading this thread I'll end up standing on my head to run my mill, and running the lathe from the tailstock end. Ignorance was bliss.
 
Dean!

See...that's the only complaint I could have of this forum.
The mods are very good at protecting the forum from...
scammers,
trouble-makers,
ne'er do wells,
off topic discussions,
thread hijackers...

but here I am (we are) :big:

along with...well...I'll leave the list to you all...but I'll give some initials...

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

and just to be all-inclusive...

123456789
pi
sigma
delta
beta
alpha
one of my favorites...upsilon
that funny sign for the person who doesn't know who/what it/he/she is

okay...time to put the jelly jar away
I'm on vacation



 
zeeprogrammer said:
one of my favorites...upsilon
that funny sign for the person who doesn't know who/what it/he/she is

When Epsilon and Upsilon = 25 it can be said to be the sum of something slender. ;D How Greek is that ???

Best Regards
Bob
 

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