How to pick a lathe and mill?

[Maine Ronin]

Hello everyone,

I'm a machining student that has completed his first year of school and I'm interested in buying some of my own machines. Namely, the two fundamental to most shops, a lathe and a vertical mill. My classes haven't really covered how to pick out good equipment for the home shop. I see used Series I Bridgeports, even with DROs on E-Bay for a few thousand dollars. Then again there are brand new Shop Fox M1008 mills around for about the same price.

Lathes seem easier to pick out and less expensive. It looks like a good size Shop Fox can be had for around $1600. School has spoiled me with DROs for the Z axis, but I guess I'll just have to deal.

What's the best value for a poor begining machinist on a budget? I kinda like the Shop Fox because I think I can make room for it. I just wonder what kind of tolerance it can hold and if can at least handle mild steel. My instructor did tell me that the table-top/mini mills couldn't really handle steel. What size machines do you need to make model engines and do some light gunsmithing?

Thanks for any advice,
Adam

 

[Mastermaker]

With gunsmithing a important factor when choosing a lathe is the spindle bore, the thickest barrel blank you think you will use should be able to pass through the spindle.

Using a independent 4-jaw and a steady does work but it is a pain and it limits the length of barrel you can work on.

The best advice is to buy the largest lathe you can fit and the best mill you can afford.
If you will be doing a lot of small work then a high rpm(2500 minimum and above 3000 if you plan to do much work with mills smaller than 1/4") on the mill is a must, infinitely adjustable speed is also a big plus.

That small mills/tabletop mills can't handle steel is complete and utter bull****.
The weight and horsepower of a large mill allows you to take heavy cuts while maintaining a good surface finish due to the weight so in a production shop it will save you time.

With model making and gunsmithing you rarely take heavy cuts so while weight and power is nice it is a luxury, not a necessity.

That said, this affliction of ours is such that whatever machine you buy you will not have it long before you start wishing for a larger/heavier/stronger/faster etc. machine since it will allow you to take on that project that is just a little to large for your current machine.

Shopfox and others that sell chinese machines under their own brand name are good machines to start on and I have round column mill similar to the shop fox M1007 that have served me quite well.

If I were to buy another mill I would buy a milling machine with a dove-tail column.

 

[Maine Ronin]

Thanks for the advice. After obsessing on the internet all day, I'm leaning toward mill like the Sieg/OTCO X2 and a smaller Jet or Grizzly lathe.

All this information can be overwhelming! I'm ready to just throw my hands up and say "If you've made model engines that run, just tell me what machines you used and I'll buy those!!!"

Thanks again for help on a topic I'm sure has been beaten to death. By all means though, if anyone has had success with a particular mill and lathe, please tell me what they are.

Adam

 

[Foozer]

How to pick a lathe and mill?

Good topic, good timing. Having the same thoughts for a while and looking over the various bells and whistles, for my skill level (we wont go there) the HF 9x20 and a Sieg X3 have been put on the to get board. There is always the "Just a few hundred more $$$ and I could get . . ." never ending list but practicality has to set in at some point.

Like it has been said, when the day comes where the need exceeds the machines capacity, then the upgrade process can begin. No mater how much I spend on a machine, what it can produce is only that within my ability to use it.


Robert

 

[arnoldb]

Adam, first off, welcome to HMEM

I'm by no means an expert; in fact, I'm still pretty much a beginner - and have used my tools to build some basic engines and for other "odd" jobs.

From a modelmaker's perspective, pretty much any machines would do; I'd say the golden rule is to get to know your machines well, and how to make those machines do what you want to. Models are normally small, and EXCELLENT work have been done on small Taig and Sherline and X1 machines - even on metals like stainless steel - contrary to your instructor's comments (which I suspect were pointed toward industry rather than hobby).

You mentioned that you would like to go into gunsmithing; a field I'm not too familiar with. But I would dare to say that the lathe you choose should be able to accommodate between centers the longest pieces (barrels?) you envisage working on plus some additional working room. As to a mill, you should choose a machine that would cover working on the maximum sizes you envisage. From my limited knowledge of firearms, that would be about 300-400mm of travel on the X axis - this would be for long rifle barrel machining. Of course, If you wanted to make a hexagonal outside shaped long-rifle barrel, that figure needs to be as long as the barrel would be with clearance for a toolbits at the start and end...

The general rule is to buy any machine as big as you can afford - you can make small parts in big machines, but not the other way around. Make no mistake though, for some jobs I have wished for both smaller and bigger machines.

In a HOBBY environment, pretty much anything goes - as long as you are patient and use your head. Most of the cheaper machines need some tweaking to get to better levels of performance, and there is a lot of information available on the web on how this is accomplished. But make no mistake, good work can be done on these machines without any tweaking - the biggest machine is the grey matter in your head.

Personally, I have a much loved (and sometimes frowned upon by "real" machinists) Myford ML7 lathe, and I recently bought an Asian import mill (biggish in terms of model engineering). So far, both have delivered everything I expected in the model engineering environment - sometimes with less than spectacular effects, and sometimes with surprisingly good results.

Good luck on choosing your machines

Regards, Arnold

 

[Deanofid]

Hi Adam, and welcome;

For model making and other similar sized projects, just about any sized machines you choose can be made to perform spectacular tasks. Cruise the "Work in Progress" section and some of the tooling sections to see what people here have done with table top, or bench top machines. There are fine examples of top notch work all over this forum, and much of it is done with small-ish equipment.

The idea that small milling machines, (or lathes, for that matter) can't do much work in steel is a load of hot boloney. No offense to your instructor, but he's simply misinformed, or uninformed. Again, check the projects here to allay that silly notion. I use a mill that weighs only 80 pounds, and it has no trouble whatsoever with steel.

For gunsmithing, your equipment needs will be dictated by what you mean by "gunsmithing". If you mean things like cutting dovetails and bolt or receiver work, bench top machines will probably do fine for you. If you mean cutting chambers in barreled actions, you're going to need a lathe that will accommodate the barrel through the headstock spindle, and you may need a longer bed, too.
Don't let a small machine put you off your gunsmithing fun, though. If you have to buy a smaller lathe and mill to suit your shop size or wallet contents, you can still do a great deal. You may just have to send over-long work to another shop. Your ability to think through problems and tricky setups will get you a long way in the absence of a larger machine.

Let us know what you decide on, and if you need specific info, try to ask specific questions. There are lots of us here to help you.
Hope you will join in the fun here.

Dean

 

[Twmaster]

Adam,

Welcome aboard. Yup, looking for machines can be a confusing mess. Lots to choose from, many options and sizes and price ranges. As it has been said buy the biggest machine you can afford. Over the years I've made many mistakes buying things I thought I could 'get by' with. Not just metal working machines.

I'm really curious where your teacher got the idea small machines could not do steel...

Here's a part I make with the same 80 pound mill as Dean:

It's a tool post for vintage Craftsman benchtop lathes and is made from 1018 cold roll steel.

You can make lots of stuff with small machines. You just have to adjust for capacity.

 

[Mastermaker]

Sieg makes good machines and jet has a good reputation so a small lathe with say 20" between centers and a sieg mill is a good start to the affliction.

A bandsaw would also be a +.

I would advice you to spend more money on the mill than the lathe though.

To make a crap lathe turn out good work is a lot easier than getting good work from a crap mill(in my experience) and there is quite a bit you can do with a milling machine to improve a lathe but not that much you can do with a lathe to improve a mill.

FWIW

 

[Maine Ronin]

Thanks for all the advice everybody. I'm feeling a lot better about making a decision. I know it's expensive but I'm really liking this machine:
http://www.billstoolcrib.com/RONGFU.HTM

A DRO and stand for $2214, and all that capacity! Pricey but seems like a lot for the money. That and a $1200-$1500 lathe from Jet or Shop Fox with that $100 DRO from The Little Machine Shop on it would be great! With a basic band saw in the corner I'll be in business for making engines.

Time to beg, borrow and steal my way to a few grand! 8)

 

[Tin Falcon]

kind of late coming into this but here are some random thoughts.
generally get the biggest and best you can afford and have room for in your shop.
keep in mind what is included or not included in any package deal you get. Accessories and tooling costs can easily cost as much as a machine itself. Things like collects collet chucks 4 jaw chucks, steady rests follow rest etc may or may not be included with a lathe/mill. new or used. so when pricing budgeting include all that you need or think you need. Also look at availability of accessories and tooling down the road. unless you are comfortable making tooling for an orphan machine.
Some fantastic models and projects have been made with the Sherline and Taig lines. These are versatile well built and well supported.
the imports are populate need some tweaking and a good bang for the buck and thanks to LMS and other aftermarket companies well supported as well.If you have room used old American iron can be great as well.
Tin

 

[AR1911]

Thanks for all the advice everybody. I'm feeling a lot better about making a decision. I know it's expensive but I'm really liking this machine:
http://www.billstoolcrib.com/RONGFU.HTM

While that is probably the best of the round-column mill-drills, it still has the limitations of a round column. If you have to raise the head to change a tool, you lose your location and have to re-align for center. Tedious and time consuming. a Square-column dovetail vertical column maintains it's zero.
For about the same money, look at the Sieg X3 offered by Grizzly and many others. Same price range, much more accurate overall.
Don't get me wrong, those round column mills have been sold by the thousands for decades. Many a gunsmith does fine work on them. And gunsmith chores rarely require large vertical head movements. It will probably work for you. But the X3 is abetter, more accurate machine. It can also be upgraded to CNC if you ever decide to do that. The mill-drills are not a good candidate for CNC.

 

[Chazz]

Little machines can't do steel? Hmm, I made a new cross slide lead screw and support bracket for my Craftex 9 x 20, .75HP lathe out of 4140, dry-cutting to boot and I was able to take .012 cuts with no problems. (that's .024 total) The only caveat was after I made my 4 bolt compound hold-down plate. Too much chatter with the stock 2 bolt hold-down plate.

Have fun!
Chazz