universal cutter grinder

[petertha]

Ive been hunting around the web, looking at various tool & cutter machines modelers have built themselves for ideas. There is some beautiful stuff out there. I've seen Quorns, but they look outside my league (or at least what I think I'd be prepared to invest time wise making one).

Then there's the line of thinking: 'just buy the dang machine, grind the cutters & bits & get on with work'. Which...had some initial appeal until some of the prices started sinking in. Ouch. I guess now I have a better appreciation for why rolling your own can make sense.

I was wondering if anyone had firsthand experience with machines like these. According to the dealer its Taiwanese, good quality, used among machine shops when they don't have clasic N-Am/european iron. He also said there are some lookalike bad quality knock-offs to watch out for... I guess somewhat fits with my lathe/mill experience. I noticed its an accessories thing though, one for drills, one for endmills, one for lathe-type cutters...

Anyway, just looking for thoughts & opinions. I'd be looking to do typical model engineer stuff, primarily dedicated lathe/mill cutters, bit sharpening, maybe end mills too (never done much of that before).

 

[petertha]

maybe... one day...

http://www.metallmodellbau.de/MINI_BONELLE_1.php

 

[lordedmond]

they are dekel copies made for single lip cutters yes they do work but require a lot of setting up , I have sharpen end mil end and side but do not try below 10 mm, the lathe tools attachment is huge think 25 mm square bits,

as for the drill thingy I can make a better job free hand

here is some vids about half way down the page
http://cnccookbook.com/CCBDToolGrinder.htm

note they run at 5000 rpm so take care when getting wheels

for lathe tools i use a square 5c collet ( mine is a 5c machine ) the angles can be put on as you require

Stuart

 

[cfellows]

Tool grinding often has more to do with the tool holder than the grinder. There are numerous plans and drawings for jigs and tool rests to grind lathe bits, end mill ends and sides. The sides are the hardest and require a special jig or holder. What specificially are you wanting to sharpen? Are you interested in fabricating one or more fixtures to use with a stock 6" grinder?

Chuck

 

[Mosey]

Well, for me it's easy.
I can't afford a sharpener, and couldn't build one either.
Want some mills sharpened, send 20 of them to the sharpening guy, and 2 weeks later they are on my doorstep. $55.00. And better yet, he threw one away because it was junk. Thank you. I would probably have it kicking around for another 15 years. He did a nice job and now I have essentially new mills minus a little diameter. So I mike em all when I go to use them.

 

[RonGinger]

First, I think Mosey is correct- you can get a lot of professionally sharpened tools, or even buy new ones, for the money that grinder will cost. Do the math, you might be surprised.

But its very nice to have your own tools. I have wanted one of those machines for years, and finally got one at Cabin fever last year. Mine is an Alexander from England, and its a fine machine. Im still 'making friends' with it as one of my buddies describes it, but I have made a few engraving cutters.

these machines are really for making single lip cutters as used on pantographs or engraving applications. They will not sharpen common 1/4" or 3/8" end mills, or drills. So they are pretty specialized.

I bought one of the imported ones from Wholesale Tool several years ago and it was junk, so I returned it. The photo of this one is different, so maybe its a better one. Who is selling this unit?

 

[petertha]

Tool grinding often has more to do with the tool holder than the grinder. There are numerous plans and drawings for jigs and tool rests to grind lathe bits, end mill ends and sides. The sides are the hardest and require a special jig or holder. What specificially are you wanting to sharpen? Are you interested in fabricating one or more fixtures to use with a stock 6" grinder? Chuck

I guess highest priority for me would be the ability to make nice, accurate, specialized tool bits & cutters primarily for lathe work. So HSS stock, or tool steel that could be profiled & heat treated into cutters, making & replicating various relief angle geometry, nose radius, V angles... that sort of stuff. Of secondary importance is bit sharpening & end mills for reasons mentioned. It would take quite a few re-sharpens to pay off a machine & even good quality drill bit replacement doesnt seem too expensive until they get big.

I like the look of your machine BTW. Where I seem to have mental stumbling blocks is not so much the holding & fixturing, I can visualize making the pivots & collet blocks etc. Its mostly the the motor business & the x,y,z travel & lockdown business.

Seems like the motor is usually separated off & belt driving a dedicated spindle, presumably for attaining proper speed but also vibration from less expensive motor/bearing combinations? Would a harvested direct drive grinder be suitable? Are cup type wheels adaptable to these?

The table travel setup that seems kind of overwhelming: lead screws, engagement nuts, measurement dials, sliding dovetails, micrometer adjustments, bearings, bushings. Seems like the same ingredients as a mini mill or lathe. Of course many have demonstrated it could be built with time & effort. Maybe Im getting impatient with age, they look like the same 'stuff' that belongs to the ENGINE I want to build... I just want the cutters! ;D

Joking aside. Maybe I just need to cast my net wider & look at more plans for ideas & spend more time on the hardware ingredients..

 

[petertha]

I bought one of the imported ones from Wholesale Tool several years ago and it was junk, so I returned it. The photo of this one is different, so maybe its a better one. Who is selling this unit?

I stumbled on it from these folks at Bauer when I was checking out DRO's. I'm in Canada so kind of confined my searching to here. Ive seen occasional used N-Am & Euro machines on ebay, but pretty sure the weight/shipping would make it impracticle. http://www.bauerltd.ca/

When I googled the model# for similar grinder & filtered Taiwan vs China, they all seem to be similarly priced (spendy by my standards).

 

[joeby]

FWIW, a friend of mine picked up one of these grinders at an auction. Sort of a scratch and dent sale, I think. The machine was basically new, still in the crate wrapped in plastic and the familiar, smelly rust preventative. It had had a rough life up to the point he had bought it, having been dropped hard enough to damage the motor and bottom plate.

Anyway, I was asked to get it up and running again, and try it out to see how well it worked.

So, to possibly answer a few questions, the spindle is adjustable axially with a knob on the left side of the grinder to allow for DOC adjustment, probably the primary reason for belt drive. The entire "rail" that the work-head is attached to is also adjustable to some degree, in-line with the spindle axis.

This type of grinder is intended to grind on the face of the wheel, not the periphery, so all the DOC adjustment is in-line with the spindle axis and the adjustment knobs do have micrometer dials.

You have limited space to the right of the wheel, so face grinding of endmills, while possible, is restricted to larger diameters and short lengths. Due to the stop for the "swing" into the wheel being very poorly made, center cutting endmills are next to impossible to get right.

Grinding the flutes of an endmill is possible with the attachment, but not fun...or easy. The attachment spindle is a poor fit in its bore and the finger rest is poorly made, making it next to impossible to get the flutes right.

The drill grinding attachment was broken, will try that after I get the parts made.

I haven't tried the lathe tool attachment yet, but it looks like it may be useful for threading tools and such.

All that said, I have touched up a few endmills on the ends, and sharpened a couple of spade drills. They look the part, but I have yet to try them. The one endmill that I have attempted to grind the flutes on has been an exercise in frustration up to this point.

My take on this is that these grinders could be handy to have; but not for the price they want for them. I think you could fix a lot of the issues with a little effort, but I feel the price is too high for a "kit" grinder. I would rather pay a few bucks to get my endmills ground right, or look for a REAL grinder for my shop and put the effort into it, (real meaning Cincinnati, B&S, or the like).

Just my $.02

Kevin

 

[cfellows]

I guess highest priority for me would be the ability to make nice, accurate, specialized tool bits & cutters primarily for lathe work. So HSS stock, or tool steel that could be profiled & heat treated into cutters, making & replicating various relief angle geometry, nose radius, V angles... that sort of stuff. Of secondary importance is bit sharpening & end mills for reasons mentioned. It would take quite a few re-sharpens to pay off a machine & even good quality drill bit replacement doesnt seem too expensive until they get big.

I like the look of your machine BTW. Where I seem to have mental stumbling blocks is not so much the holding & fixturing, I can visualize making the pivots & collet blocks etc. Its mostly the the motor business & the x,y,z travel & lockdown business.

My reasons for building my T&C grinder were much the same as yours. I had envisioned grinding HSS tool bits for various jobs. Turns out I really don't have the patience for that. It takes way too long if you grind slowly enough to keep from overheating the work. I'm currently building a small cutoff saw which uses a really thin cut off blade. I'm thinking it might be easier and faster to form a tool bit by first cutting out the chunk of waste rather than trying to grind it all out. At the end of the day I think I'm more enamoured with building the machines than with actually using them.

Seems like the motor is usually separated off & belt driving a dedicated spindle, presumably for attaining proper speed but also vibration from less expensive motor/bearing combinations? Would a harvested direct drive grinder be suitable? Are cup type wheels adaptable to these?

I think the separate spindle has more to do with having something you can mount a grinding wheel on. While it's true that separate spindles can be more accurate and vibration free with multiple, preloaded bearings, etc., I don't think that kind of accuracy is really needed for tool bits. Of course there are those that would disagree with me and I respect their opinions. My motor armature is supported by a large ball bearing race on the front end and there is no end play or side play that I can discern. The only vibration I can detect is from an unbalanced grinding wheel. The most common mounting for cup, dish, and straight tool grinding wheels is a 1.25" center hole. For my grinder, I made an aluminum wheel with with a 1.25" OD hub and a large backing flange. My motor has a threaded shaft and I use a 1/2" x 13 TPI left hand thread nut with a large washer to hold both the grinding wheel and the aluminum mounting wheel onto the motor shaft. Not the best arrangement but it works OK and I check the nut often to make sure it isn't coming loose. So far it never has.

The table travel setup that seems kind of overwhelming: lead screws, engagement nuts, measurement dials, sliding dovetails, micrometer adjustments, bearings, bushings. Seems like the same ingredients as a mini mill or lathe. Of course many have demonstrated it could be built with time & effort. Maybe Im getting impatient with age, they look like the same 'stuff' that belongs to the ENGINE I want to build... I just want the cutters! ;D

Joking aside. Maybe I just need to cast my net wider & look at more plans for ideas & spend more time on the hardware ingredients..

Table travel has more to do with accommodating all the various fixtures that are used to hold the work in various attitudes, angles, etc. The actual amount of travel used in sharpening is very small. Dovetails are probably not required or even the best solution. Using round rods as guides with bronze or iron bushings is likely better since less grit can accumulate on a rounded surface and they are easier to keep clean.

I like my T&C grinder and it will do pretty much anything I want. But the truth is, I rarely use it and could easily get by with a much simpler set up.

Chuck

 

[bvd1940]

I picked up a HF 3 in 1 machine on the cheap just to make into a grinder as I see most of the parts already there and all I have to do is build the articulating arms and buy some diamond wheels.
Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[pete]

I stumbled on it from these folks at Bauer when I was checking out DRO's. I'm in Canada so kind of confined my searching to here. Ive seen occasional used N-Am & Euro machines on ebay, but pretty sure the weight/shipping would make it impracticle. http://www.bauerltd.ca/

When I googled the model# for similar grinder & filtered Taiwan vs China, they all seem to be similarly priced (spendy by my standards).

Petertha,
Not to throw this thread off topic, But I bought a Newall DRO thru Bauer. I thought they were great to deal with. A normal Newall dro package didn't agree with my specific mills measurements for the scale lengths. So they ordered in exactly what I needed. I'd certainly deal with them again.

Pete

 

[Blogwitch]

I was in the same dilemma as yourself, to buy one of these clone machines or not. John S soon put me on the straight and narrow, by saying almost exactly the same as Kevin has. They are designed mainly for sharpening single flute cutters, like engraving bits, everything else is purely a compromise, and not a very good one at that.

I am in the lucky position to have a small but very old surface grinder, but I suppose anything sliding past a grinding wheel with some accuracy will make a good tool grinder.

I just made up little jigs to hold tools in the correct orientation, or bought commercial ones if they did not cost too much. The only thing I can't do yet is grind the flutes, but as far as I am concerned, if they require the flutes grinding, they can be thrown away, remeasuring before use and doing calculations for cutting, for me, is just not worth the bother.
I bought the 5C version of one of these, just before John S redesigned it to use ER32 collets. I wish I had waited now, but they do do a very good job, grinding up to 12 end faces.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtures

If you could buy a cheap small surface grinder with a mag chuck, you could do as I have done, two machines for the price of one.


John

 

[tel]

Well, for me it's easy.
I can't afford a sharpener, and couldn't build one either.
Want some mills sharpened, send 20 of them to the sharpening guy, and 2 weeks later they are on my doorstep. $55.00. And better yet, he threw one away because it was junk. Thank you. I would probably have it kicking around for another 15 years. He did a nice job and now I have essentially new mills minus a little diameter. So I mike em all when I go to use them.

Strewth! Your tool grinder blokes must work a lot cheaper than ours - a mate of mine sent 11 end mills to a local outfit and got 'em back with a bill for $300+

 

[petertha]

Not to throw this thread off topic, But I bought a Newall DRO thru Bauer. I thought they were great to deal with.Pete

Good to know Pete, thanks for that. My situation is similar; various scale lengths & encoders that best suite my lathe. They seemed very knowledgable & easy to work with putting together a package for me. Hope to be tackling this in the next month or so. I sourced Newall through KBC for my mill a few years back, but strangely KBC is not showing DP700 display's units available, but apparently this has replaced C80 for some time now.

 

[petertha]

I found this link showing pictures of Deckel's from various angles.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/deckel/page4.html
Its a very elegent looking machine. Does anyone have a link to something like an operator manual or internal parts schematic? Now I'm interested in what the guts look like & which knobs turn what. Most of the links I tried were dead ends or $-signs at the end of the trail.

 

[Blogwitch]

Tel,

This chap regularly advertises on the Home Workshop site

http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/index.php?option=com_adsmanager&view=show_ad&adid=10273&catid=2

You may need to open the link in a new window


John

 

[shred]

I found this link showing pictures of Deckel's from various angles.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/deckel/page4.html
Its a very elegent looking machine. Does anyone have a link to something like an operator manual or internal parts schematic? Now I'm interested in what the guts look like & which knobs turn what. Most of the links I tried were dead ends or $-signs at the end of the trail.

I have an engraving cutter sharpener that looks a lot like a mini version of the Deckel SO. It does ok at small single-flute cutters, but is by no means a full T&C grinder. The Deckels go for silly $ on eBay most of the time, but don't seem to get used all that much.

I think the surface grinder with the add-on bit is the way to go for most people. A surface grinder is a lot more useful than a T&C.

 

[Holt]

We got a Deckel S0E at work, ill see what sort of documentation we got for it.

which knobs turn what

There isn't really much to it, at the back of the stone, there is a dresser, that swings across the grinding surface, at the upper left, there is a handle adjusting the stone against the dresser, so the grinding surface doesn't move as the stone gets worn. The lower left handle adjust the tool distance to the stone

 

[marcel]

petertha
Hello
Here you can see how he is deckel so
http://www.gti-usa.com/manuals/DECKELSOPARTS.PDF
greeting
Marcel