Seeking Drawings for Yacht Signal Cannon

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Jennifer Edwards

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Finally got a good answer: if I build it to chamber “12 gauge short saluting shell” and making it unable to chamber a standard length shot shell. It will come under class one signal device law,

This kills two birds with one stone:

Not having to register the darn thing as a shotgun (yes less than 2” bore canon are legally shotguns the U.K.) and not having to have it “proofed” by whomever does that,

It also removes the whole problem of obtaining a black powder license.

Now with thd legal stuff figured out:

Still I need some good drawings of a breach loading mechanism.


36899702-618A-443E-BACF-9E54D655692F.jpeg
 
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WOB

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Post deleted.


WOB
 
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Ed T

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If you google Winchester signal cannon you will find a couple for sale over near Chester which is, I believe, about a three hour drive from where you are. Could be one closer, but that was the first thing I saw when I looked. It might be worth going and taking a look just to see how it's made. AFA tapering the barrel, that wouldn't make a lot of difference if you loaded up a "full" shotgun shell, assuming that the barrel didn't burst which it probably wouldn't. Of course, if you take the words literally, that wouldn't be "a" lethal projectile; it would be a bunch of lethal projectiles.
 

WOB

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The original Winchester cannon is currently manufactured by http://www.bellmorejohnson.com/. If you look at the closeup pics of the breech mechanism on that site, it is easy to see that it is made according to this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US681021A/en?inventor=charles+griffith&oq=charles+griffith&page=4 . The inventor assigned the patent to Winchester and the patent was filed in 1901.
The patent dwgs. are detailed enough for a maker to create his own machinist dwgs. with dimensions easily by using a printer with copying function with adjustable scale factor. Using a known dimension( the chamber dia., for example) the printer can make a new copy of the patent dwg with the size adjusted so the known dimension is actual size on the copy. The other desired dimensions can then be easily measured off the dwg with a caliper. This method also makes irregular shapes easily transferable to metal stock by simply cutting them out of the copy and gluing them to the metal stock. This method only works when the original dwg is an accurate representation of a real working model of the patent. In this case, it seems to be very close to the real cannons made by Bellmore Johnson in both shapes and proportions. It is certainly close enough to make a working gun directly from the patent.

WOB
 

Jennifer Edwards

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Thanks Ed and WOB,

It looks like a simple design, and I like simple. I’ll still have to get an eyeball on one to be able to wrap my head around the breach lock.

I like the elegantly simple design of the spring for the hammer. It appears to have a positive lock when cocked and looks like it would have a “snappy” action when the lanyard were tugged.

I appreciate the input guys

Jenny
 

goldstar31

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The Home office in its Guide to Firearms Licensing Law para 6.42 covers the use by 'sailing clubs' It concludes that anyone wanting do this, must have a firearms certificate.

It seems clear enough once having waded through huge swathes of regulations inapplicable in this matter
 

Jennifer Edwards

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Thank you goldstar.

It seems reasonable enough. Thank you for going the wading!

I have been looking at firearms regs snd corresponding with several signal cannon companies and have only been more confused with each bit of info.

I think I’ll simply go have a chat with whomever handles firearms licenses in my town and see if they can’t confuse me some more.

Jenny
 

goldstar31

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Amongst other things, I studied Constitutional Law, commercial law and - clears throat, criminal law - before studying --- engineering.
I finished up before retiring at the tender age of 55, as , clears my throat, prosecuting for my firm.
I would suggest that you arrange with the local police whether I am right and if, so what reasonable steps you should pursue to make the thing- and not end up as an exhibit in the Tower of London.
What you must remember is that 'Ignorance of the Law is NO excuse' in English jurisprudence.
And I'm short of files to get you out of the pokey:oops:

So my best wishes. And clears throat again, I'm dining with members of the local Firearms Squad- on Friday the 13th- a date to conjure witho_O Honestly and all that
 

Jennifer Edwards

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Thanks for the sage advice. I suspect I will have to take one of two tacks,

Either as a class one signal device, which is covered under the law you quoted.

Or register it as s shotgun (all cannons under two inch bore are technically shotguns) which eojld dldo require proofing. At that point it would be capable of legally firing a projectile.

I’m hoping by designing it to only chamber those 12 gauge short signal blanks will get it recognised as the former.

Any way I’ll see what our local constabulary says and go from there.

I guess my friend, who’s boat the signal cannon I’m replacing was stolen from, was technically breaking the law every time she fired it!
 

goldstar31

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You see in England, a great deal is that is unwritten and we have in lots of things rely on case law.
What is Statute Law( as this is), the Queen approves it, not in English but in Norman French.
That was another Norman, I hasten to add:D
Another Norman:mad:
 

rmd55

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Jenny,
being across the pond I can't help with legal advise. Over here anyone citizen can legally make firearms for their own use, under federal law. Though state/local law may not allow you to own the firearm you just made. As for "proofing" the cannon look to a good gunsmith especially one that makes custom firearms. When I was making black powder arms 30 vrs ago we would proof the barrel with a load double the maximum load we would ever shoot in the gun. NEVER EVER use modern smokeless power in something designed for black powder. The pressure builds much faster usually with disastrous results. There are some black powder replacements, as even over here the misuse of black powder has made it hard to get. Pyrodex is the most common brand here. Again a gunsmith could help you there. There are some lovely large bore English double barrel rifles different sizes of "Nitro Express".
Richard
 

nel2lar

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BTW, I was lucky enough to retire at 56 from a career as a manufacturing systems architect. I’m now 63 and have loved every minute of my early reprieve from the rat race.


Jennifer
There is no such thing as luck. You worked hard for what you have and you deserve all the enjoyment possible. I enjoy your build and conversations even if I do not reply.
Enjoy your life.
Nelson
 

goldstar31

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Jennifer
There is no such thing as luck. You worked hard for what you have and you deserve all the enjoyment possible. I enjoy your build and conversations even if I do not reply.
Enjoy your life.
Nelson
How sad! History shows that Luck has an important role to play- or not.
Napoleon was reputed to say about choosing a new general but asked 'Is he a lucky general?'
I'm a fairly decent mathematician and claim to understand the Theory of Probability but like the rest of my associates last Sunday confounded us all when I won three times in 3 successive weeks using the same number .
There were 60 chances all at £1 coin and therefore if I won once, I would probably win again after a year or so.
If you spin a coin up, eventually it will be even heads and tails. Not so for me, it seems.
The only work that I did was to take a £1 coin out of my pocket and and say, 'my usual number 31'
Of course, I seem to have what the Scots call ' The Gift'. It's anything but a gift. It seems to run in the double helix of DNA in my family- but I digress.

Hard Luck, Nelson!

Norman
 

Cogsy

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I'm a fairly decent mathematician and claim to understand the Theory of Probability but like the rest of my associates last Sunday confounded us all when I won three times in 3 successive weeks using the same number .
If you were to correctly pick 3 lots of a 1/60 chance (for instance a 3 number lottery draw where the numbers are replaced), then that would be a very unlikely event (1 in 216,000). However, in this case you won once, which had a probability of *almost* 1 (it was virtually guaranteed to happen at some point as you play every week you say). From there, the probability of you winning the next week would be 1/60 which isn't hugely unlikely. Next, the probability of you winning a third time, given that you'd won twice already, was again 1/60. When we put these probabilities all together, the probability that you won three weeks in a row (regardless of the number you picked, assuming the game is fair with no bias) is 1 x 1/60 x 1/60 which comes out at 1 in 3600. This is a reasonably unlikely outcome but not phenomenally so, and far more likely than winning any 'normal' lottery or even reasonably large raffle just once. Even the 1 in 216,000 chance is more than an order of magnitude less than the probability of winning a lottery draw one time.

There were 60 chances all at £1 coin and therefore if I won once, I would probably win again after a year or so.
I guess it depends on your definition of 'probably' but you'd have better than a 50% chance of winning again after 30 weeks. Being that you're discussing probability theory then I think 'a year or so' would be a bit more than "probably".
 
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Hi Jenny,
The definition of a shotgun is a smooth bore weapon with a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and needs a shotgun certificate and if made must go through proof at either London or Birmingham proof houses. If the barrel is shorter than 24 inches it becomes a firearm and has to have a firearm certificate, section 1 and again needs to go through proof. Secondly, the aquisition of Black Powder requires an explosive licence from the local police force and don't you have to jump through hoops to get one. It is easyer to go to the local gun shop and ask for a container of "Pyrodex", ff, a substitute for black powder fire arms. As it is a propellant and not an explosive it doesn't require a licence, but, be careful as it is about 30% more powerful than black powder. It burns but does not explode when confined. I know these bits of information as I shoot "muzzle loading" fire arms and at one time made my own long range pistols for competition at places like Bisley, Deer Hay and Mere ranges.
 
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