Model Steam engine use make free power for you shop

[SmithDoor]

This is one to make power using small steam engines and has been use for over 100 years. Back in 2009 I work on drawings for this system. Looking in to this how to 1) was using high pressers steam and 2) Stirling Engine using Hot Air. Found using low pressure steam was the best way to store the power and heating the water. I stop working on due to ills but still have all the drawings an calc. Even today this is one best ways to make power for shops and home.
Below is AutoCad plan on how it works.


Dave

PS this is a type of of boiler for steam engines



http://gunsmithing1.tripod.com/webonmediacontents/1_How_low_temperature_solar_works.pdf

 

[Tin Falcon]

what point in the system is the 212 degree water heated into steam. ??

it is the phase change between liquid and vapor where the energy is gained and lost . it only take 80 calories to melt a gram of ice @0c but 540 to change a gram of 100c water to steam.
Tin

 

[dman]

my brother and i have been thinking about cheaper solar power. one thing we considered was using a parabolic trough to focus light onto photovoltaic cells so we need fewer of them. the problem is heat so you need to cool them so we thought about creating hot water to augment the boiler but you only need so much hot water, the rest we'd need to dissipate into the air (or swimming pool in the summer). so a steam engine would be fun to power with the excess but then it defeats the purpose of the photovoltaic cells to begin with. i wonder what kind or efficiency a solar steam engine would produce? could it match that of solar cells which aren't all that efficient in the first place?

even if the power from the steam engine was small you may be able to run a geothermal heat pump to cool your house or pump water over your ac condenser when the sun is shining in summer months.

 

[SmithDoor]

If you look at the drawing you will see ligh blue this is under a vucum -13 psi. Even power plants today use -psi on the last stages. Check out the Titanic propuison system on the last piston on the out put side was at 188 F deg. (9 PSIA or -4 1/2 pis) going in to the turbine on the out put side of the turbine know the temperature is only 102 F deg (1 PSIA or -13 1/2 psi) This is steam at a very low temperature but take a vacum on the condenser coils. This just simple water pump.

To find more information on the last stage try looking up old steam ships on the internet

Dave


QUOTE=Tin Falcon;201765]what point in the system is the 212 degree water heated into steam. ??

it is the phase change between liquid and vapor where the energy is gained and lost . it only take 80 calories to melt a gram of ice @0c but 540 to change a gram of 100c water to steam.
Tin[/QUOTE]

 

[Philjoe5]

This thread has quite a bit of blue sky thinking in it.

Comparing the exhaust steam output and work of the titanic engine to that which could be obtained from a solar panel obtainable by the average home shop is a stretch.

Smithdoor, you have never introduced yourself properly, which is a basic forum rule. Please do so in the Welcome section before continuing this thread.

Phil

 

[Tin Falcon]

Sir you still did not answer the question .
I understand condensers create a partial vacuum. , and increase efficiency and power due to a lager pressure difference. but where is the steam generated . it takes energy to change hot water to steam. lots of energy . it only take one calorie to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius. ( the definition of a calorie.) but it take s 540 calories to turn that to same gram of water to steam . That much energy does not just appear. I see three pumps in the system . They are either adding energy to the system and making it run if powered by an outside source or if powered by the generator taking energy out of the system and reducing efficiency.

Tin

 

[SmithDoor]

Phil
I am engineer and manufacture of Aircraft Hangar Doors for over 30 years. I my shop I had Machine shop, Fab and 3 man foundry. I am also a union Journeyman machinist in repairs. You can see my old web sit by using archives.org under the name smithdoor.com The company still is working today but I sold to work on solar power. Today I am work on my Garage machine shop on small projects and still looking at solar power after getting ill in 2009 (I had 3 surgerys and chemo in 11 months) . I also have a yahoo site on 9" south bend lathes http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe9 and a solar group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PowerSolar. On the solar site I have the drawing and calc for the system it fres to ever one today.

Even today a have a few wheel cast I plan on making small gas engine

Dave

This thread has quite a bit of blue sky thinking in it.

Comparing the exhaust steam output and work of the titanic engine to that which could be obtained from a solar panel obtainable by the average home shop is a stretch.

Smithdoor, you have never introduced yourself properly, which is a basic forum rule. Please do so in the Welcome section before continuing this thread.

Phil

 

[SmithDoor]

All the pump are small. The best way to look at this is on last few blades of steam turbine. This where they getting last out of the steam most over look that steam was at 350f deg going but out is around 100 f deg. The best way to show this is the thrid enginee on the Titanic 188 F deg in out is 102 F deg. all in a vacum

Dave

Sir you still did not answer the question .
I understand condensers create a partial vacuum. , and increase efficiency and power due to a lager pressure difference. but where is the steam generated . it takes energy to change hot water to steam. lots of energy . it only take one calorie to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius. ( the definition of a calorie.) but it take s 540 calories to turn that to same gram of water to steam . That much energy does not just appear. I see three pumps in the system . They are either adding energy to the system and making it run if powered by an outside source or if powered by the generator taking energy out of the system and reducing efficiency.

Tin

 

[Entropy455]

Do not attempt to build this engine.


It will not work.


Think conceptually: The boiler is high pressure, the condenser is low pressure. The resultant differential pressure between the boiler and condenser “forces” the stem through the engine. Unlike compressed air, the high heat capacity of steam maintains elevated pressures during work extraction.


Without a differential pressure, you simply cannot extract mechanical power from steam. Consider a traditional boiler design, where a 150 psig boiler feeds a vented condenser. The boiler creates a differential pressure across the steam engine of 150 psig. Again, the pressure is the driving force of work extraction. The high heat capacity of steam slows the drop in pressure during work extraction – which is why water is the medium of choice for power plants, and not air. In the proposed design, you don’t begin to make steam until you draw vacuum on the boiler, which means that the boiler and condenser are operating at nearly the same pressure. The differential pressure across the steam engine will be practically nonexistent, and so will the power extraction.


There is another critical design flaw, which Tin Falcon pointed out – specifically:


Saturated water (212 degrees F, atmospheric pressure) contains 180.12 BTU of energy per pound mass. If you port the saturated water into an evaporation chamber, and draw a vacuum on it equal to 5 psia, here’s what will happen: Approximately 27.7% of each pound of water that enters the evaporation chamber will flash into steam. The steam will have a temperature of 162.18 degrees F, and a specific volume of 73.525 cubic feet per pound-mass.


The remaining 72.3% of each pound of liquid water that enters the evaporation chamber will reduce in temperature to 162.18 degrees F, and will remain inside the chamber. This water must go somewhere, or you’ll fill up the chamber. As designed, the liquid water will be drawn through the steam engine, with no work output.


If you port the saturated water into an evaporation chamber, and draw a vacuum on it equal to 1 psia, here’s what will happen: Approximately 61.3% of each pound of water that enters the evaporation chamber will flash into steam. The steam will have a temperature of 101.69 degrees F, and aspecific volume of 333.49 cubic feet per pound-mass.


The remaining 38.7% of each pound of liquid water that enters the evaporation chamber will reduce in temperature to 101.69 degrees F, and will remain inside the chamber. Again, this water must go somewhere, or you’ll fill up the chamber. As designed, the liquid water will be drawn through the steam engine, with no work output.


Smithdoor, whoever told you that this engine “has been in use for over 100 years” told you a lie.


Additional design consideration: the available solar flux from the sun is about 1-kw per square meter (this is for a bright sunny day). If you assume a reasonable thermodynamic efficiency for the solar panel of 40%, and a reasonable 5% thermodynamic efficiency for a piston-steam engine operating at low temperatures, you’ll require just over 37 square meters of solar panels per one mechanical horsepower out (again, that's assuming a bright sunny day). Point being - there is a reason the solar industry is failing in a disastrous fashion. :fan:

 

[Propforward]

All the pump are small. The best way to look at this is on last few blades of steam turbine. This where they getting last out of the steam most over look that steam was at 350f deg going but out is around 100 f deg. The best way to show this is the thrid enginee on the Titanic 188 F deg in out is 102 F deg. all in a vacum

Dave

But you haven't shown how you get your initial steam load. You show a "low pressure steam dome", but water enters that at (apparently) 212 F. What happens then? Do you have a heater on that vessel?

Just pulling a vacuum on it isn't going to raise the steam temperature to a point where you can do work with it. That is not how the Titanic engine functioned.

 

[SmithDoor]

Try this some day
1) get can with screw top that will seal the can
2) put 1 to 2 tbs of water in the can put the lid on do not seal the can
3) heat the can with water in side to 210 deg
4) seal can while it is at 210 deg use gloves
5) let cool down to 100 deg

Now see the power

Today most cars have vacum brake the most they put out is 14 psia (-14 psi) see the power they give on stoping.

Dave

 

[sunworksco]

Thermal solar electric generation plants are 10% more efficient than photovoltaic power plants. Sterling engines are very successful in solar thermal electric generation .
ENTROPY455,
The solar industry is very successful, where countries have wholeheartedly promoted it.
Solar will generate the bulk of Germany's electricity in just a few years.
The solar industry is so successful in Germany , in part, because we Americans have supported dirty technologies, instead of clean ones. Our country was, at one time, the manufacturing leader of green alternative products. This has created a boom of solar manufacturing in other countries. China and Germany now lead the industry in manufacturing and sales around the world. Also Germany is not controlled by the power companies, like we have here in America. Germany allowed any owner, be it residential or commercial, to sell back 100% of the electric generation at peak day prices to the utility companies. This was as high as $0.66@ KW. Our public utility commission will not allow this. They only allow a very rediculous minute amount. Our federal government study has determined that we have enough geothermal energy to generate all of our energy needs. We could generate all of our electricity and build affordable electric cars, if the oil industry and automotive industry were not lobbying against it. Also take not that we are the only country in the developed world that allows foreign interests to contract American lobbyists to gain favor and power.
We will not only need create independence from dirty energy but provide millions of domestic jobs. This is the change that should be made as if we were fighting a war against oil and the nations that would like us to not exist other than to recieve our dollars.
Regards,
Giovanni

 

[Tin Falcon]

Try this some day
1) get can with screw top that will seal the can
2) put 1 to 2 tbs of water in the can put the lid on do not seal the can
3) heat the can with water in side to 210 deg
4) seal can while it is at 210 deg use gloves
5) let cool down to 100 deg

Now see the power

The above demonstration shows the principle behind the first steam engine. this was soon abandoned due to extreme inefficiency .
Tin

 

[SmithDoor]

If you are using oil this is very true But solar is free and keep the cost low makes this pay to do solar steam.

*** FYI there three main reasons to use low temp solar
1) safety not use live steam
2) low cost on piping and storage of heat water
3) low cost of simple solar panels over the cost of parabolic mirror focused panels

Dave

The above demonstration shows the principle behind the first steam engine. this was soon abandoned due to extreme inefficiency .
Tin

 

[Propforward]

Your point number 3 is not a reason - it just says "solar panels", exactly what does that mean?


I'll be honest, I am not convinced, for the reasons Tin has already outlined with far better explanation than I can manage. I just don't think you can generate the power you need to run a small machine shop with this set up in an efficient manner.

I learned a long time ago not to get into internet arguments though, so all I will do at this point is give you my good wishes, and wish you success in your venture.

 

[Brian Rupnow]

A few years ago, I had a conversation with a mad scientist from California. He told me some interesting things. It seems that if you make a large balloon, half of it reflective mylar, and half of it transparent plastic? with the seam running vertically between the two halves, then when the baloon is blown up to become a perfect sphere, the focal point of the reflective mylar will be right in the center of the balloon. You then restrain the balloon from turning with the transparent side towards the sun. Somehow a coil of copper tubing is suspended at the focal point, and will flash water into steam almost instantaneously. The steam is used to run a steam engine (not sure whether piston or turbine, which runs a generator. The engine is powerfull enough to generate electricity AND a condenser, so that the steam is recaptured as water, making it an almost closed cycle. Seems these things were being tested for efficiency in Arizona, as a source of energy to get America away from oil dependancy.

 

[Beachside_Hank]

It just seems to me that all these theoretical arguments assume that the constant here is free energy. My own adventures in energy management have been directed towards reduction, not self- reliance, and I am pleased beyond measure with the results. Location: Florida, U.S.A. Home: Single level concrete block/ stucco, slab, approx. 1600 sq. ft. In this past year since buying this property, I have installed H.E. vinyl windows with gas filled and tinted glass. Increased attic insulation. Fabricated and installed Cypress wood Bahamas- style[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU2fEdGwD84&list=UUu_V0DUQ3ESxRWmqEWqUhJw&index=4&feature=plcp"] louvered shutters[/ame]. Downsized my heat pump from a 3- ton unit to a 2-1/2 ton H.E. unit thanks mostly to the prior 3 upgrades. Energy needs for the same period this years vs. last (before the upgrades) average about 52% less. My handler gives a thumbnail sketch payback time frame of about 12 years, so any further adventures in improving my situation would probably take the form of passive solar heating of my water system needs, a common feat down here and relatively easy to implement.

 

[Propforward]

You make very good points Hank. Your approach is solid - using the available resources to manage energy consumption in sensible ways. Using solar to heat hot water and reduce electrical load makes sense - the other energy saving ideas are very smart.

 

[Herbiev]

The first question that came to my mind was the pressure differential as Entropy pointed out so I was expecting to see some complex non return valve arrangements.
Second question is where and how is the steam generated. A large parabolic mirror focused on the steam dome? If you have built one of these units Dave, can we see a video please

 

[SmithDoor]

I made this more clear

3) low cost of simple solar panels over the cost of parabolic mirror focused panels

FYI I 10 years ago look at the higher temperue steam
The 212 f deg is safer to use over 350 F deg and the cost to keep safe is lower


Dave

Your point number 3 is not a reason - it just says "solar panels", exactly what does that mean?


I'll be honest, I am not convinced, for the reasons Tin has already outlined with far better explanation than I can manage. I just don't think you can generate the power you need to run a small machine shop with this set up in an efficient manner.

I learned a long time ago not to get into internet arguments though, so all I will do at this point is give you my good wishes, and wish you success in your venture.