Help me spend some money! :)

[Trizza]

Apologies moderators if this isn't the right forum, but it seemed to most closely fit my question.

I'm pondering re-starting my adventure in the world of model engine machining, after a false start years ago.

Here's where I am now:

• Small space in a corner of the smallest bedroom of the house
• No machine tools yet - no drill press, mill, etc. Lots of woodworking hand tools, including diamond plates for sharpening.
• Unlikely to have space for a milling machine, or budget for it yet.
• Starting budget for machine & tooling is ~£1000
• Living in Finland, so EU suppliers are the only practical ones

Ultimately I'd like to be building engines suitable for RC planes, and I'm fully aware that I should only attempt that after a few compressed air and/or steam engines. I'm not interested in terribly big stuff, just little stuff. Multi-cylinder stuff is exciting.
Quietness is a priority, as most of my work will be done late in the evenings, so I had my eye on the Sieg Super C3 sold by Arc Euro Trade with its brushless, belt drive head. The capacity is a nice bonus as SWMBO is heavily into knitting so I can bribe her with the knitting needles made from something exotic every now and again . It I get that without any setup its just under half of the budget, so I'd like some help picking how to spend the rest of my budget.

So, with the benefit of hindsight, what tooling would you prioritize?


Here's my current "must have" tooling list:

• Milling slide
• Face plate + clamping set
• Live centre
• Tailstock chuck
• HSS tool stock
• Centre drills
• Parting tool + holder
• 80mm 4-jaw independent chuck

Here's my "really want" list:

• Carbide tooling
• 100mm 4-jaw independent chuck (and backplate required)
• Travelling & fixed steadies
• QC tool post

Here's my "want" list:

• Full setup & needle bearing conversion by Arc
• DRO kit
• Wood tool rest
• Bigger milling table for the slide
• Collet set & chuck (ER32?)

I've left out a lot of obligatory stuff, like drills and micrometer etc, but feel free to mention all of those things too.

 

[mklotz]

Carbide tooling...

Stick with HSS (High Speed Steel) until you've acquired a bit more experience. It's much cheaper and will do most anything you'll be doing for a while.

Wood tool rest...

Once you get your QCTP, stick a stout steel rod in the boring bar holder and, voila, a wood chisel rest. If you prefer a more knife-edged rest use a piece of angle iron.

Parting tool + holder...

These are often included with QCTP sets.

Travelling & fixed steadies...

I've built a lot of small engines and I've always been able to work around the occasional need for a travelling steady. Obviously, your perceived need will depend on what you want to build but I wouldn't assign this item "really want" status.

Why buy two 4jaw chucks with size differing by less than an inch? Buy the big one and be done with it.

Good luck in your new adventure. Keep us apprised of your progress.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Here's my current "must have" tooling list:

Milling slide -not a bad idea if planning on not having a mill. I have a mill and shaper do not have a mill slide.
Face plate - clamping set very rarely used on my shop but they are versatile basic tool.
Live centre- yep I use mine a lot
Tailstock- chuck again very useful.
HSS tool stock YES inexpensive versatile tooling well suited to the home shop.
Centre drills yes
Parting tool + holder *
80mm 4-jaw independent chuck a four jaw is a good thing to have more versatile than a 3


Here's my "really want" list:

Carbide tooling- certainly can be used but most home lathes are more suited to HSS you may want to wait.
100mm 4-jaw independent chuck (and backplate required)you already mentioned a 4 jaw do you mean a 3 jaw scroll??
Travelling & fixed steadies probably handy but I rarely use the steady and do not have a follow. some lathes come standard with these
QC tool post- move this up the list IMHO a first top priority accessory * most come with a parting tool and holder.


Here's my "want" list:

Full setup & needle bearing conversion by Arc should improve performance but something you can add after you make some chips.
DRO kit Nice to have but for price of a decent DRO you can buy a mill.
Wood tool rest not something I use but cheap enough if you realy want one.
Bigger milling table for the slide see my dro comment.
Collet set & chuck (ER32?) this should be moved up the list a bit.

I've left out a lot of obligatory stuff, like drills and micrometer etc, but feel free to mention all of those things too.

definitely hand tools
0-1 Micrometer
6" calipers of your choice. Electronics are almost as cheap as verniers these days.
a square or two
a set of jenny calipers
A big fat marker
a couple of scales.
taps and dies
Happy shopping
Tin

 

[Trizza]

Great tips so far, thanks! To clarify, I had two 4 jaw chucks mentioned because it was a prioritized list - 100mm would be my first choice but I'd take the 80 if it made more sense to spend the difference on something else. Mind, the differene won't exactly break the bank...
Interesting what you folks said about the carbide tools - care to elaborate at all? In the past I've used all HSS but was under the impression that carbide is a lot nicer if you can spare the money.

 

[Trizza]

About collets: would you buy a set or just buy them as the projects require? And what standard is good? Arc sells ER25 and ER32 chucks for the C3 - which would you pick?

 

[Tin Falcon]

Carbide does indeed have its advantages and disadvantages. . it is harder and therefore more brittle. you can in theory cut a lot faster with carbide like 7 times faster. but this faster cutting requires more power something small machines do not have. carbide also requires constant coolant, if you use coolant sudden cooling will cause it to shatter. carbide also requires a green wheel or diamond wheel to sharpen. you can use your diamond hand stones to touch it up.
carbide especially the inserts are the was of modern production machine shops. they increase production by the increased feed and speeds they allow. Material come of faster. the insert keeps position no need to reset-tool offsets on a dro or CNC setup. The last shop I worked in as a pro the shop rate was $100 per hour. A $ 5 insert is cheaper than paying a guy to resharpen and reposition a bit.
In most home shops time is not as important and cash outlay is more closely guarded. You can buy a box of a dozen tool blanks for $ 1.50 each or less. and take your time to grind them . get the ones with a bit of cobalt in them they will hold up longer and require less sharpening. Also hone or stone your bits IMHO it makes a big difference.
I have new carbides used carbide. I have a set of 1/4" import inserts holders . (mine were a pain in the butt) probly the nicest tool set I have used(cutting tool wise) is the Warner tools These are top shelf although a bit expensive. They are Made in USA and warner stands behind his stuff.
In the old days of treadle lathes and line shafts forged carbon steel cutters were the norm. you can still make boring bars from drill rod for cutting brass and aluminum.
Entire books have been written on cutting tools. there is much to learn and it is as they say where the rubber meets the proverbial road.
Tin

 

[steamer]

Marv and Tin's comments apply well....+1 for a large 4 jaw and a faceplate

There's nothing that can't be done with a faceplate!

You can't machine something you can't measure....get the micrometers before the steady rests.

If you are even THINKING about a mill....skip the milling slide. A boring table is not a bad idea though.

The QCTP is a good idea...very ridgid, but you need to pay attention to tool geometry....learn to grind HSS tools, they will do everything that lathe asks (I'm assuming you have the ubuiquitous 7X lathe here)...you need a really stiff lathe to take advantage of carbide, but sometimes, if your turning something like 4150 or 4340, you just need to use it.

Best part of HSS tools....they're cheap!

Dave

 

[Tin Falcon]

the 7x is a good starter lathe. The c3 should have some improvements to the older ones. IMHO flex in the compound is number one to deal with . And a cam lock on the tail stock if it is not already done. the A2Z cnc aluminum QCTP are a good size for this lathe. You can put a axa 100 size on these lathes (I did for a while) but kind of like a 6Ft loader bucket on a garden tractor a bigger tool but not necessarily better.
Tin

 

[jct842]

I have a 7X12, I bought a milling attachment, and was not satisfied. had I taken the money for it and added it to what I spent for the micro-mill I could have got the mini mill, a big step up! the attachment is klutzy to use, not very accurate, and only has the travel of the cross slide for total milling length. john

 

[Tin Falcon]

while I have seen engines built with lathe alone, a mill is valuable companion. you mention drill press , dro, and milling attachment. the cost of these item should cover a mill. a mill will do the work of a drill press and more than a milling attachment. A DRO is nice but lots of work has been one without them. also a dro is more needed on a mill than lathe.
confusion right?
Tin

 

[Trizza]

Ok so sounds like HSS is definitely the way to go, and don't bother with DRO. Gotcha, thanks

I *might* have space that I can use part time for a mill, but it would have to be such that I could tuck the mill away when its not in use. Would you say that I'd be better off increasing my budget to cover for a little mill as well, keeping in mind it'd have to be lightweight enough that I could stash it away? Would a lightweight mill do a decent double duty as a benchtop drill press? Arc Euro Trade have the X0 micro mill which is rather affordable, but the weight is already such that it might be difficult to stash away.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Most of us consider the x- 2 the starter mill for hsm . A sherline or taig may be better especially from the portability end of things. But I do realize you are from Europe.
a big downside of the miros is z travel think of the length of the biggest drill bit add the drill chuck then the vise now how much room do you have for a part? Machine screw length bits help some here. but mini machines get tight real fast cant imagine a micro exceppt fot real small stuff.
Tin

 

[kvom]

One thing to add is a bench grinder for the HSS lathe bits. You might want to use this outside to avoid grinding dust in the bedroom.

 

[Trizza]

One thing to add is a bench grinder for the HSS lathe bits. You might want to use this outside to avoid grinding dust in the bedroom.

Bench grinder is on the list - I've been lamenting the lack of this for renewing the bevel on my plane irons. Its worth noting that the room isn't actually used as a bedroom - its my hobby room.

Most of us consider the x- 2 the starter mill for hsm . A sherline or taig may be better especially from the portability end of things. But I do realize you are from Europe.

Yeah, Arc has the Super X2 Plus model, which has that brushless motor as well. Sounds like a good mill, but it is a fairly serious chunk of metal at 60kg. Sherline and Taig are significantly more expensive here for what seems like a less capable machine (at least by reviewing the specs sheet).

The hobby room is currently taken up by a computer desk, RC plane building bench and woodworking bench. Theres a handy nook empty alreawdy where I can fit a bench for a lathe. One idea is that I could use the woodworking bench with a building board for RC stuff and dedicate the RC plane bench to a milling machine.
Would it be smarter to rearrange, save up a bit longer and shell out for both a lathe & mill? Mills are tempting for a whole lot of other reasons, too, that just seems to be yet another hobby rabbit hole to fall into

 

[Troutsqueezer]

that just seems to be yet another hobby rabbit hole to fall into

You have no idea. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[kvom]

Woodworking (sawdust) and machining (oil and swarf) don't usually mix well. Good luck.

 

[Trizza]

Woodworking (sawdust) and machining (oil and swarf) don't usually mix well. Good luck.

Would a plastic cover over the machine/s when not in use suffice?

 

[kvom]

I'm not a woodworker, but that would seem to be a minimum requirement.

Or just make some engines from wood. ;D

 

[Trizza]

I've been studying up a bit on the small mills and the Super X1L that Arc Euro Trade sell seems to be a good deal - looks like its as capable as the Taig and only has 20mm less vertical space than the X2 does. X2 has MT3 or R8 spindle though, and a 500W brushless motor - but is significantly heavier & therefore less portable. And of course it is 50% more expensive again.

After some pondering I think I can find quite a satisfactory layout allowing me to have both mill and lathe. So here's a nice weighty difficult to answer question: would I be better off spending less on accessories for the lathe and instead getting both lathe & mill and a very basic setup for each?

 

[kvom]

Regardless of what you think is a basic setup, you'll always find more that you'll need. For a mill, your minimum setup is something like this:

- Collets
- Vise
- Parallels
- Drill chuck
- Endmills
- Soft mallet

Drill bits and reamers are shared between mill and lathe. For model making you'll need taps.