ML4 setup

[goldstar31]

Norm interesting thoughts, (as always), if you just spelled it out for me sometimes would be a lot easier. I like the idea of a dividing head, and vertical slide. Wouldn't need too much adaption would it

As far as I can see it, one simply follows someone like Geo Thomas in his 'Workshop Techniques' to have adapt a casting with a 65 tooth bullwheel to do more than the simple 5 and 13. Mine has the two wormwheels a la GHT but that's GHT! You NEED the book.
As for vertical slides from top slides, it is simply adding a block of square metal and getting a vertical of 90 degrees.

 

[fcheslop]

Jon, the reason the bearings became loose is probably the peelable shims are missing at least two people have mentioned it as the reason for the cracking problem
Measure the gap with feeler gauges and either leave them in or sort a shim out it may save some heartache later on. Put simply the adjusting screw has nowt to nip down on and comes loose or some heavy handed so and so over tightens shortly followed by the infamous cracked headstock
Just my two penneth take it or leave it
cheers

 

[goldstar31]

Jon, the reason the bearings became loose is probably the peelable shims are missing at least two people have mentioned it as the reason for the cracking problem
Measure the gap with feeler gauges and either leave them in or sort a shim out it may save some heartache later on. Put simply the adjusting screw has nowt to nip down on and comes loose or some heavy handed so and so over tightens shortly followed by the infamous cracked headstock
Just my two penneth take it or leave it
cheers

Fraser might be right and so might I ! Frankly, Jon has failed to - yet again- to give people who may be able to help sufficient information about HIS lathe.
If the lathe is an older version, it will have a single clamp to each journalwhereas, if it is more recent( Errr, uhmm) it will have two bolts to hold down each of the split bearings. or a single bearing at each journal

If there is wear, and Fraser's single bolt arrangement is found, the only safe way to take up the wear is by fitting a slightly thicker spindle and the other obvious result might be 'Crack' and end the story!
Alternatively, if my thoughts are correct, the bearings can either be replaced or built up from reticulated tin salvaged from scrap crankshafts for one cheap way.

Frankly, I'm getting weary of the possibility of upsetting other helpful people because of someone else's refusal to give proper information.

I'm ready to simply ignore the problem and tackle more rewarding challenges.

Norm

 

[JCSteam]

First attempt at making an oil cup, hasn't gone so well, removed 7thou too much from the end that goes into the headstock so it's a loose fit. Not good! Will try again, though this one has at least sorted out what steps I need to take and what order, so the next two will be quicker.

Could have sworn I'd taken more photos, steps I took were to face off the large end of the blank, the turn the outside so I had a good finish, thi was then spot drilled, then drilled with a 7mm bit then stepped upto the large taper drill you can see in the photo bellow. This has a tapered point to it and left a nice changer to the edge no need to bore it.

The blank was then turned and trued up in the 3jaw, needed packing one side to run concentric with what I had turned on the outside, I stepped the edges turning the nub on the end to what i thought was final diameter, and then proceeded to turn a cone on the end towards the nub. This was then drilled with a 1mm drill bit.

 

[JCSteam]

Sorry you feel that way Norm.

 

[JCSteam]

Guys I'm sorry for been thick, (it's become apparent to me recently), when you were all on about peelable shims missing, I thought you were meaning that the shims should have been fitted between the bearings, and the casting. Having had some conference with Frazer, I think I'm now on the same page as the rest of you, (I'm a visual learner, than a written word learner).

So these peelable shims should be fitted at the front of the lathe, in the void between the bolt that clamps the casting down. Both at the chuck and change gear end.

To answer the questions yes the peelable shims are missing, the lathe is the older type with just one bolt per bearing to tighten them. Yes this is an early lathe headstock that can go crack and never be the same again.

Again sorry for been slow on the uptake. Shims will be made up to fit into the void

 

[Blogwitch]

Jon,

I too am feeling the way Norm is, very little info supplied.

To me you are trying to run before you can walk.

Your first issue HAS TO BE the headstock, but because you haven't supplied a single photo taken from above, so we just can't categorize or identify it correctly.. If you don't get the headstock sorted first, you are just pi**ing against the wind with everything else you are trying.

I could get you many photos of what it should look like and how I fixed things as it is still easily available to me, but without help from yourself, why should I bother?

John

 

[JCSteam]

Sorry everyone!

I thought I'd suppied as much info as I could but it seems I'm mistaken.

These photos have all been posted to the thread, if you needed something more specific, or from a different angle it would have been nice to be asked such.

Yes I'm a beginner, which comes with it a lack of understanding, both with terminology and with the layout and what info is needed to gauge a true diagnosis of the problems that I have/haven't got with my lathe.

It's worth pointing out I feel at this time I'm struggling financially, having been through 2jobs already this year, and now been paid minimum, having my monthly income decrease by a third. I am short on time, having 5 kids to look after over the weekends, and a two year old full time. All this means I'm left with a basic set up at best, a kitchen base unit, and worktop that I got from freegal, a rickety shed I've repaired best I can and levelled on recycled slate roofing. Using an electric extension lead to provide power to the shed.

It can be deduced that experience I value greatly, means to rectify issues are slim. Time to work in the shed sometime none existant!

If you can't bear with me then I probably shouldn't be here.

All these photos below have been posted on this thread.

 

[JCSteam]

Please forgive me if I'm out of line, but while turning the oil pot, I turned it round in the chuck and it was running out of concentric, I packed one of the jaws with a piece of Pepsi can and got it running true, to machine the lower part of the pot. No one told me I should do it that way, I know it isn't correct, but it's a fix until I have the means to try and true the run out of the chuck up properly.

The worn saddle was causing issues because small bits of brass and steel chips, were getting underneath the saddle, and causing it jam up, or become stiff when in use. Again a Pepsi can cut to the width of the bed, and a screw put into the middle of the bed, in the hole for fastening the traveling steady, I have an improvised chip tray that means that most of the chips end up away from the ways. Yes the correct way would be to skim bed and saddle, and shim the saddle, do I have means or money to do that no!

I am improvising and finding solutions to what i can within my means. They aren't the correct way to achieve a lathe that's pin point accurate, but this lathe is older than my dad by half my age. Do i expect it to be precision? Nope not really!

Anyhow I'm off to play with a traction engine at the weekend, it may renew my enthusiasm!

 

[bazmak]

Carry on as you are your doing fine. Its not your lack of knowledge/experience/
or finances are niggling people its just the lack of information.Everybody will bend over backwards with help/advice but give us plenty of photos and ask questions no matter how daft. Regards Barry

 

[fcheslop]

Jon, Im sure as a collective you will get the help and information you need.
The frustration I feel is coming from the fact we are just going round in circles and working a wee bit blind at the moment
From my limited experience its a matter of approaching the job in a methodical method not jumping from pillar to post , Firstly take a deep breath and start again with the basics .
I know this hobby is at times expensive exercise and like others here I started with very little as I never had more than a few pennies to scratch my a^^se so youre not alone in that respect,
Although its now common to see shops full of kit at the end of the day what they produce may not be that much different from what canbe made in a basic shop yes it will take longer with more challenges but it still canbe done,
Concerning making the oil pots like any part ask a bunch of machinist how to do summit and you will get as many different answers as there is machinists amateur or otherwise
I would have simply turned a pin to fit the drilled hole glued the part on then machined the outside shape

 

[goldstar31]

Frankly, I have to agree with Frazer about jumping from pillar to post and I would continue with the disbelief in you wanting to spend time and effort on what could only be described as lunacy in wanting to continue to be part of the legion of lost causes and make oil cups when your efforts - to work properly. should be channelled into getting your lathe to do something. There are multitudes of 'oilers' on scrap bikes and cars as well as old electric motors. I've got a half horse motor which plugs away at 2880 rpm on my old £100 Clarkson and I think that I oiled it when I got it- but maybe, I forgot! I've got a car screaming for a service. It's probably a worth a damned sight more than all my workshop but it has only done less than 10,000 miles since new and who cares if the lights sort of flash like Blackpool Illuminations? There are a thousand reasons for my car to stop but the oil smells all right and it is up to the dip stick marker- I think.

As for your old Myford, I would make sure that before I go off into the Museum of White Elephants, whether my lathe spindle is held properly or is wandering about like some lost soul. It's run a hell of a lot of revolutions since heaven knows when but we know or assume that parts of your lathe which have done far less mileage are in need of TLC or knackered in old parlance.

I'd be scratching what is left of my white hairs on how to cure a possible worn spindle or worn bearings or BOTH.

I 've got several books which are nearly as ancient as your lathe and me that describe how the author made a -wait for it laddie, stand freezing- a new oversize lathe mandrel.

When that little lot came part of my life, I had the spindle chromed and ground.

I might have married a close relative to the real Alice in Wonderland but neither of us believed a word of it about fairies or Mad Hatters. You have to face the real cruel world but people are here to help you-- but only if you help yourself.

Lecture over- face the problem or go down whimpering.

N

 

[JCSteam]

Well I had a friend come around today to look over the lathe and check wear.
The bearings in the headstock of mine is simply a bronze split bearing turned OD and ID to fit the spindle and the headstock casting. This is a later modification by a previous owner, as the casting will have had to be bored out to fit this type of bearing. There is a slot along it's length of around 2mm which is lined up with the split of the casting. The bolts tighten down on the casting an thus the bearings and close the bearing around the spindle, the grubscrews used to put pressure on the top of the bearing giving even pressure. The spindle was measured too and was 1thou less than an inch all the way around. Which at least means the spindle isn't bent, or worn oval. Reassembled, the play was then adjusted out. The bearings are worn and will need replacement when funds allow, but are serviceable at the minute.

The gibs have been tightened to take out any play, though new ones could do with making in the future.
The major issue found is the tailstock, the bore is worn, giving 8thou play of movement. Which means that drilling a hole would be a precarious operation, this can be reduced by nipping the spindle lock, but still doesn't irradicate the movement, just lessens it. I've had the fix explained to me, so I'll try it one day with some assistance. The end is bored to take a sleeve, then the sleeve turned to fit the spindle and the new bore in the tailstock.

It's not great but any drilled holes I'll need to remember to nip the spindle lock on a little to take the play out. Until it's sorted that is. Funds at the minute are limited, so may be some months before I can fix all the issues, but it is now levelled and dailed in as accurately as possible, to within a thou, even on the tailstock.
This was done with a test bar between centers and a dial indicator. The test bar at one point been within 1 micron accuracy, a little more these days after a lot of use and years. After all my frustration trying different methods two adjustments and it was within 1thou. The designer of the tailstock been blasted by my Frazer for its naff design, and lack of register to bed.
A big Thank You to Frazer*for taking the time out his day to come and tune my lathe up and identify what is good and what isnt, and where money needs spending.

As it stands it'll make occilators happily all day long. Something more sophisticated or with more precision *needing less than 1thou, then I might struggle due to some of the issues on the lathe. But overall for a lathe from the 40's which has seen use by amateurs, and now another one. It will suffice till the callings of larger more refined engines call.*

I'd like to say thank you to all those that have posted in this thread willing to offer me advice, and help, I'm sorry if updates haven't been forthcoming. Here's to making occilators

 

[ShopShoe]

JCSteam,

I'm sorry that your tailstock is so bad, but as you said you now know how to work around it.

I would like to suggest (or re-suggest, as the case may be) that in your learning and improving process it might be time to look more at boring bars as they can help you tremendously in making good, round, straight holes.

Keep posting, I'm following.

Good Luck,

--ShopShoe

 

[JCSteam]

Thanks Shoe shop, I'll post a picture when I get home of the voting bars I have, most are round and not mounted to the tool post, some are. Some are for internal thread cutting.

I will get there eventually, I'm off to make shims up from brass and tin can today. Now i have a measurement of the bearing gap needed. Bought two feeler gauges for less than £6 so I could measure it.

 

[Blogwitch]

Use soda cans for your shims for rough setting and put baco foil (0.001") in a sandwich for fine tuning.

John

 

[goldstar31]

Myford's used to sell laminated shims which were multiples of 2 thous and stuck together with probably 'hot glue'.

The holes and shapes were probably punched out using the way that locomotive leaf springs in steel strip or Tufnol were prepared.

It's a great way to start over thick and remove the shims with a penknife or Stanley knife.


It's merely a development of what John has wisely suggested earlier.

The old blacksmith's used to call the tools 'Bob and Aunty'. I'll leave it there.

Norm

 

[fcheslop]

Hi Jon, glad I was of some help
To put the matter to bed
as expected the bed does has a wee bit of wear and tear but lets be honest you aint going to find a 40+ year old machine without a bit of wear
The tailstock does indeed need a wee bit of work and I think like others who have been around old machines for most of our lives we expect such things and John covered in great detail how to carry out this fix on his old Atlas lathe from memory
The headstock mandrel was in surprisingly good condition although the bearings have a small amount of oval as expected
Despite the machine looks with the extra tapped holes here and sundry I was very surprised by the machine overall condition
Again I was surprised how well it measured up for its age. I know it could do with more machining than I can do due to the lack of kit but I dont see why with a bit of care it wont produce decent parts for you
So now its time for you to begin that rather large learning curve and Im sure as a collective people will help .
Remember baby steps first ,watch and learn its all part of the fun as is the wall of shame were the dead parts and muck up live.Despite what the experts say Im sure they all have that why did I do that moment I know I have
Well time I disappeared back into my shell
kind regards

 

[goldstar31]

If you recall I sent you quite a bit of information and following Frasers's examination, you could go for something simple but very useful on which to base further projects.

'Cleeve' in his excellent series suggested how to make things out of bits of steel, joined with bolts . I made up a 4 way turret which only requires 3 bits of square steel and a rear tool post which will also hold items -in the absence of a milling machine. Both items can be done on a lathe only. A bit of drilling and tapping but using metric fasteners instead of dearer imperial stuff.

Then you could make a swing tool holder to do lots more than the boring for which the design was designed.
I've got one and if I can get 'round tuit' I have the drawings and bits for the retracting Screwcutting version. Again, just blocks and no mill required.

Comments please on a £5 note, would be welcomed as I am an impoverished old pensioner:hDe:

Norm

 

[fcheslop]

Hey Norm at least youve got a pension Iv got nowt so give the donations to me as Im in need .Strange me and money have always been strangers our lass recons its made round to go round but she dont spend hers
Its already fitted with a 4 way post so thats one thing Jon wont need to worry about although today the 4 way post is part of history I still like them that is until I knock my hand on a sharp tool I much prefered the Lammas 3 way post
kind regard
FraZer no idea why the Z rather than the S although the S maybe lowlands