ML4 setup

Discussion in 'The Shop' started by JCSteam, Aug 23, 2017.

  1. Aug 23, 2017 #1

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

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    Been a while since I visited this forum.

    I've been busy with the kids, but I've also been hard at work:)

    Having got the lathe in the shed I then went to see how far out the tail stock was, it needs some fine tuning. *:D

    So a shopping list. - belt for drive, a spanner to fit the bolts on the gibs, and x8 M8 nuts bolts washers :)

    Time to set it up properly

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  2. Aug 23, 2017 #2

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

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    How do I embed photos to the page??:)

    Managed to load from my mobile, sorry about the top three photos
     
  3. Aug 23, 2017 #3

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

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    Done a little more in between looking after the kids.*

    This is my first attempt at setting up a tool in the tool post and shimming it to the correct height, sorry poor lighting so pics aren't great, need to shed some light on the situation. **

    This was one method to check, using the jaws of the 4 jaw to check it's alignment as the cross slide was fed across it's face. I think it's either spot on or just above centre. Will find out when the chuck starts spinning. *(The jaws are not clamped tight against one another, not even touching).*

    Everything has been given an oil over too. And is a lot smoother now.*

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  4. Aug 24, 2017 #4

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

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    Hi, just found a few issues with the lathe. First one that there appeared to be a tight spot on the top slide. This was just over around 1/2" of travel. I slackened the gibs off and it was still there until the gibs were so loose that top slide rocked back and forth. Ive traced it to the bolt that secures the top slide to the cross slide. When I slackened this off the binding disappeared completely. And felt the movement whilst I retightened it. Should I be worried about this as surely that means that the casting for the top slide is been bent, thus the cross slide cannot be level??? Or am I just been a brute when I tighten the bolts up???
     
  5. Aug 26, 2017 #5

    goldstar31

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    Perhaps you continue to be wandering from the accepted norms of machine tool practice.

    Do you actually know if your lathe will cut metal? I am putting the next question of accuracy into a pigeon hole for another time.

    Have the wheels turned? Again, your earlier post suggests that you have oiled it( and yourself) but as one excellent poster has suggested, do you now know where every nut and bolt is- and secondly, what does it do?

    Returning to lathes, it is necessary to follow Baz's column and he know PRECISELY what his lathe will do. Regarding the present question, might I ask you whether this point where the top slide sticks of whether you determined this by cranking the handle or did you removed the feed nut and feed screw assembly? Did you remove ALL the gunge and oil and adjust the gibs for smooth operation using the feel of your hands pushing the slide up and down and feeling for an even tightness ?Continuing the quest for answers, if the slide fails to provide an even slide, have you blued the non gibbed side and looked for 'something which is high or worn convex or concave?
    If there is a problem, what remedial steps have you done or propose? Again, once you are sure that the working face of the gib is OK, Is the gib itself beyond reproach? If it is not flat or worn, what steps have you or what do you propose to correct the error?

    Once you have got things right, you can blue one face and offer it to some essentially flat 'reference' like a piece of thick plate glass or granite headstone or whatever. Again, you scrape and blue and scrape and blue till the whole thing is flattish- and then you start to either blow your brains out or determine the spots of contact per square inch . Then you tackle the next part and you don't forget the arris raised by the tool holding bot- or dare I say it- tee bolt?

    My old battered lathe with the paint missing off or not on? Oh, yes, it's flat.

    Something to think about- which applies to all old lathes regardless of cost and size.

    Cheers


    Norm
     
  6. Aug 26, 2017 #6

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

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    Thanks for your reply Norm. When I bought the lathe it all turned freely and no binding. Though there was a lot of gunge and old oil on the bed and slides. I sprayed the whole machine with WD40, and wiped it down with a rag. Making sure not to spray the pulleys. I took the top slide and gib out again wiping these down. And wiped the top slide casting that bolts to the cross slide. I wiped the top surface of the cross slide bed down and removed this by fully unscrewing. Then pulling off the last 1/4", looking at both the threads they looked in good condition and also looked at the nuts they screw into cleaning these out with a tooth brush and more wD40. I didn't go as far as the saddle but I checked the half nuts engage and also traverse the saddle, using the dial indicator to make sure the thread was in the right place. I reassembled in reverse order using slide oil given to me by stilldrilling (david) adjusting the gibs so as they moved easily with as little sideways movement as possible. Oiling and using slide oil on the mating surfaces. The motor was also tested to ensure it runs. I cleaned over the chuck and spindle the same removing the jaws in order and cleaning out the gunk and metal chips that were in there before replacing in the correct seqence.

    My issue has come around 2 months after all this, I adjusted the clamp for the top slide turning it so it sits at a slight angle into the lathe. The tight spot was at 90 degrees to an imaginary centre line between the two top bolt once past this point it turned freely again. Once I slackened the Larger of the two clamp bolts the tight spot had disappeared. (It was only about 3 degrees of movement on the bolt)

    I haven't done any scraping of surfaces as I want to be able to bolt the lathe down and take measurements to make sure what I do makes improvements.
     
  7. Aug 26, 2017 #7

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

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    Here's some pics of the cross slide and top slide. I decided i would use Norms suggestion for setting the gibs up by hand feel first.

    Any suggestions on removing these two screws for the apron? They've been chewed up before, and putting a screwdriver (of the right size) to them doesnt do nothing. But I'd like to get them off to inspect the half nuts and give them a good clean too.

    I know that very soon I will have to sort the surfaces out, but I haven't the means to do that currently. So I'll persevere with the shoddy set up, trying to set everything up nice and neat.

    Out of interest what is the thread on the grub screws as they are missing any locking nuts, both top and cross slide.

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  8. Aug 26, 2017 #8

    JCSteam

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    Ok engage red face! :mad: :wall:

    After stopping the top slide and cross slide assembly off the top of the lathe, I took it apart tonight to see what was binding. After reassembly the same thing happened again. So backed off the Larger of the two nuts securing the top slide. And it turned freely. I nipped it up again and binding. I happened to look over to the other side where the nut was. Funny how a hex shaped nut can make all the difference. It also explains why the top slide suddenly went slack, the day after adjusting the gibs. The edge of the nut was making contact with the top slide casting. When I had adjusted the gibs I must have adjusted them against the corner if the nut. I had moved the top slide to a different angle to play with set up. The edge of the nut must not have made any contact. So the top slide suddenly was very slack.

    Funny how it's always the simple things! And new part to make on the list. A bolt with a smaller head so it doesn't make contact with the top slide. At least I may get some practice at screw cutting lol.

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  9. Aug 27, 2017 #9

    bazmak

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    I was going to say that if it only happened in one spot check for
    outside interference such as that nut,before stripping down
    No need to be red faced it happens to us all.My comment would
    be that from the photos the cross slide seems in bad condition
    Try cleaning up with a smooth file,emery and maybe a scraper
    Polish up the mating parts of the dovetail and gibbs with wet/dry
    and wd40 in the direction of travel.I think we appreciate you are a newcomer
    with little tooling or facilities so simple /inexpensive things are the way to go
    for now.As Norm says,a good clean and check free movement before getting
    the lathe running.The sooner the better,then the problems start to surface
    If you can turn a piece of mild steel then your halfway there.First job might be to skim your dead centres if their soft and machine a little clearance on that nut.Keep posting your
    problems and we will help you sort them out.Remember that photos speak
    a thousand words.Dont worry about a red face.I cringe when i remember
    to the first time i tried top up the oil in a car,thru the dipstick hole ???
     
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  10. Aug 27, 2017 #10

    goldstar31

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    After our phone discussion last night, I've also had a look at your photos and extra questions.
    Guessing about the grub screws, I would hazard a guess that they will be 2BA. These don't come cheap to replace. The rest of small threads will probably be in BSF sizes. Mine are!

    Looking at the top slide suggests that the ways were 'fine milled' rather than fine milled and then hand scraped. Following Baz's comments, I often use a 600g diamond sharpening 'stone' to remove Arris's where threads and nuts have ragged. I've been cutting tee nuts for the Sieg and these come off the 6 x4 saw rather raggy. I should change the blade but-BUT?

    As to removing the saddle etc, you can use these extractors which are on sale today at either Aldi or Lidl but remember that you must have new bolts to replace them.

    Thanks for the 'natter'

    Norm
     
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  11. Aug 27, 2017 #11

    JCSteam

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    Now the tea and nicotine has kicked in I can make a legible response lol.

    Baz the reason that I came across the issue of the top slide was because I was setting the top slide up in different positions to work out how to turn the taper on the dead centres. So I could set a test bar up and level the lathe, on studding and nuts. Moving it around from it's normal position showed up the issue of it catching.

    Norm was a pleasure to have a chat with you last night, and I think I have some 2BA nuts if not I'll ask on another forum for some only need x8 shame really as I could have got some from where I worked. But that's out the question now lol failing that a 2ba tap is only £2-3, hex stock to fit in the 3 jaw is a few quid. So I can get them made up.

    Someone on the Mamod forums suggested instead of making completely new nut and bolt for the top slide to just file or turn the part down to the required size so it fits under the top slide casting. Think that'll work for me :)
     
  12. Aug 27, 2017 #12

    JCSteam

    JCSteam

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    Well we will see if you are correct. X8 2BA nuts winging their way to me in the next week from a friend on the Mamod forum.

    Baz you said to keep posting. I'll warn you all now I like to batter and post a lot. In 2 years on the Mamod forums I've racked up nearly 10,000 posts.....you have been warned lol
     
  13. Aug 27, 2017 #13

    bazmak

    bazmak

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    Try to keep any questions or problems simple with photos Norm is very learned
    and helpful but his answers sometimes like puzzles and you sometimes have to
    work them out.Always puts a smile on my face now i am used to him.I would
    consider retapping the 2ba say M5 and use comm. available cap screws,after all
    its a cheap working home lathe not a museum piece.Of the old school i have no
    qualms about changing screw sizes.Only on models that requ hex hds do i stick to original
    Norm,do you mean to say that you have filled a worn way with plastic
    and it solved the problem ??
     
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  14. Aug 27, 2017 #14

    goldstar31

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    I learned when I was teaching and supervising( from being a 17 Year old) to make an explanation correct but induce a bit of head scratching. I was taught by a very astute but naughty old boss from being a child leaving an almost non existent war time school to where I am today. 70 years have passed- my old top clerk never forgot how much I taught him and laughingly, he went on to marry my top audio typist - in a completely different world.

    If you leave things to discover, the student learns. If you make it easy, the student will forget and ask the same damn fool question again and again.

    One of the greatest authorities on locomotive valve gear wrote to me as follows:


    'Please find enclosed the books which intrigued you. In spite of making this definitive information, I still see questions in magazines like************* asking the same old things--- and getting the same silly answers'

    And so to answer Baz.

    It now possible to get plastics which can be loaded with all sorts of goodies from sawdust to metal and ceramics. Loctite, Devcon, Turcite and so on are the medium to replace worn parts on machine tools. I simply understood liquid epoxies and mixed it with some with iron fillings.
    I think that I did an accelerated gel and waited for it all to set rock hard and quietly scraped the excess off and I had a new bearing surface.

    Recently, I had my Super 7B slideways ground but a professional machine restorer Turcited the worn saddle thus savings either having to scrap the lathe or at best, buy a new saddle casting and have it machined.

    It's a topic well documented now and worth reading up.

    OK?

    Cheers

    Norm
     
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  15. Aug 27, 2017 #15

    JCSteam

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    I have much to learn, I am well aware of that. I"'ll try and keep things simple, can't always promise as I tend to overcomplivatr things for myself if no one else.

    If they turn out they aren't already 2BA, then I'll tap them larger and buy some hex head bolts from wilko, turn the end to a point and bish bash bosh all's good.

    I know that resins can be quite stiff. But even filled with another material I can see it been able to twist and flex.

    I was actually looking at your thread Baz and the cross slide you made the gib for. Surely would be able to make a vertical slide using the cross slide as a a reference
     
  16. Aug 27, 2017 #16

    fcheslop

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    Hi Jon, for now I would embrace the KISS principal until you gain a wee bit of working knowledge
    The compound slide could either be done away with or locked up to get rid of play at this stage of the game'
    There has already been some very good advice given but as a tyro you need to balance what is achievable to you
    Im not the most proficient of posters but one problem that needs addressing sooner or later is to dowel the gibs instead of relying on the adjusting screws to hold the gib in place a problem that Myford never did learn to overcome and a job I need to do shortly again
    best wishes
     
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  17. Aug 27, 2017 #17

    JCSteam

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    You are quite right, it could be locked up for my needs at the moment.

    I'm just trying to get a feel for what the machine feels like during movement, so I can distinguish between normal operation or vibration when the lathes making chips. If that makes sense.

    I have to ask you to describe what you mean by the gibs. I was looking at getting some lock nuts for the adjusters which will stop vibration movement. They are dome shaped which locate into the holes in the back of the gib. Other than that im afraid youve lost me what you mean
     
  18. Aug 27, 2017 #18

    fcheslop

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    The gib strips are held in place by the dimples formed or drilled for the adjusting screws its possible under certain conditions for them to move
    To prevent this it is better to drill and dowel them into position
    I find on my machine when using the rear tool post for parting say 50mm it will cause the cross slide to become a little tight .This is due to the gib strip moving
    I cured this on other myfords by dowelling the gib to the slide. Iv just been to lazy to do the job on the current machine.again its a mod mentioned in the book previously mentioned . Although Myfords are a reasonable machine like most they are not without problems and Iv worked on a few as a hobby machinist and a service engineer for some well known makes before I went to the dark side making coffee for a living:)
    cheers
     
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  19. Aug 28, 2017 #19

    bazmak

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    As i previuosly stated in the past i milled flats over the dimples to position and hold the gibb.Also gives the the adjusting screws a flat face to push on
    On my last post i just spotted thru the screw holes into the gibb a couple
    of mm and ground the screws at 120o to suit the drill point.I find this more
    than adequate for the small bench lathes.
    I can only emphasise that the important part is to have the gibbs the full area
    of the diamond to prevent rock and help capture the gibb.Its a while since
    i owned a Myford so cant visualize the amount of adjustment.All i can say
    is if its more than 10 thou i would make a new one.
    I did an early post where i used the compound to make a vertical slide on the
    mini lathe,but dont know if it would work on the ML4
    Thanks Norm i will take your word,there is a lot inovative new designs out there
    I remember when my wife had a dental implant and i asked the size of the screw thread as he used a mini torque wrench to tighten it up
     
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  20. Aug 28, 2017 #20

    Blogwitch

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    Having repaired, restored and rebuilt one of these lathes for my own use many years ago, and it is still going strong in my friends small workshop, you really need some help to do it correctly, and to bring it up to modern day specs, like having an instinctive saddle travel handle where you don't turn it the wrong way and punch the tool into the chuck, plus a lot more speeds available..

    Someone with a good strong lathe and mill (plus maybe a surface grinder) should be able to restore your parts to like new, and to help you set up the machine for optimal performance.

    Even fully rebuilt and restored, the machine only really has value to yourself, as it would be worth hardly anything on the open market, so what you need to do is get it done so that your lathe will last you for many years so that you get the enjoyment from it..

    Playing about with it without knowing exactly what is needed will only cause you heartache over time.

    I am sure that there will be someone in your area that is competent to do the precision jobs for you at very little cost or even free. Most people will give their time freely, but traveling and materials do cost money.

    If I am still around in a couple of months or three, and you are still not up to scratch, then I would be willing to do most of the difficult machining work for you.

    Read this old post as it contains some good info on nose threads for the ML4.

    http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=97030

    John
     
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