Which Tools doI need to Buy for Hobby

[wheelterrapin]

Folks, as I said in the welcome section, I am a wannabe machinist trying to self teach myself through books and videos as I have no machinist freinds in my area I can learn from. My question is this:

I have a Sherline Lathe and Sherline Mill as well as I have an older 12" Atlas Lathe and a newer Enco 2 HP Benchmill. Since I am interested in building model engines which tools would be best to use (Sherline tools or Atlas & Enco) and what tooling will I need for them to make the modles?

I appreciate any advice and help I can get.

Thanks,

Paul

 

[wareagle]

Let me start off by saying your are pretty well equipped!

It really depends on the size of the part you will be making as to which tool(s) would be most effective for the task at hand. For example, you wouldn't use a sledge hammer to drive a tack (unless you have destructive tendencies :lol: ), nor would you expect to knock down a wall with a finishing hammer. It you are turning a 3/4" piece of bar stock, then you would most likely want to use the Atlas, but if you were turning an 1/8" piece of bar stock, then the Sherline would be the better solution (this is not saying that you couldn't do either on either machine).

The other thing to keep in mind is the machine's capabilities. If on will tread and the other won't, then that can impact your decision on which machine to use for a given task.

The others on this forum are much more familiar with your equipment and also have more experience, so they will have better answers than this.

This is a rough generalized answer from a mostly self taught hack machinist, but it kind of illustrates the point.

Hope this helps out.

 

[wheelterrapin]

Thanks Wareagle, any and all information is greatly appreciated and needed at this point in the game. I was primarily interested in knowing what tooling I needed and would it be better to try and tool up the Sherlines or tool up the Atlas and Enco Mill in as much as boring bars, facing tools, mill cutters, rotary tables etc. I am on a limited budget and want to spend what money I have on tooling that I will get the most out of.

I realize I will have to buy tooling as I go along based on whatever project I am working on but I know you machinist have a general tooling inventory you keep.

Thanks,

Paul

Let me start off by saying your are pretty well equipped!

It really depends on the size of the part you will be making as to which tool(s) would be most effective for the task at hand. For example, you wouldn't use a sledge hammer to drive a tack (unless you have destructive tendencies :lol: ), nor would you expect to knock down a wall with a finishing hammer. It you are turning a 3/4" piece of bar stock, then you would most likely want to use the Atlas, but if you were turning an 1/8" piece of bar stock, then the Sherline would be the better solution (this is not saying that you couldn't do either on either machine).

The other thing to keep in mind is the machine's capabilities. If on will tread and the other won't, then that can impact your decision on which machine to use for a given task.

The others on this forum are much more familiar with your equipment and also have more experience, so they will have better answers than this.

This is a rough generalized answer from a mostly self taught hack machinist, but it kind of illustrates the point.

Hope this helps out.

 

[shred]

Folks, as I said in the welcome section, I am a wannabe machinist trying to self teach myself through books and videos as I have no machinist freinds in my area I can learn from. My question is this:

I have a Sherline Lathe and Sherline Mill as well as I have an older 12" Atlas Lathe and a newer Enco 2 HP Benchmill. Since I am interested in building model engines which tools would be best to use (Sherline tools or Atlas & Enco) and what tooling will I need for them to make the modles?

I appreciate any advice and help I can get.

Thanks,

Paul

Small tools are generally cheaper, (especially with end mills until you get to the tiny sizes)-- good for learning with since you're about guaranteed to do bad things to them. Parts and such are probably also easier and cheaper to get for the Sherline. That said, you'll want to use the bigger machines for some tasks, but smallish cutters and bits can generally be used on the big machines as well.

For a lathe, I'd get a set of standard tools to get you started, and then learn to grind them as well. Sherline has a good article online about tool bit grinding and even says they only offer the sets so people can learn what they're supposed to look like.

 

[wheelterrapin]

Thanks Shred, I really appreciate your advice.

Paul

Folks, as I said in the welcome section, I am a wannabe machinist trying to self teach myself through books and videos as I have no machinist freinds in my area I can learn from. My question is this:

I have a Sherline Lathe and Sherline Mill as well as I have an older 12" Atlas Lathe and a newer Enco 2 HP Benchmill. Since I am interested in building model engines which tools would be best to use (Sherline tools or Atlas & Enco) and what tooling will I need for them to make the modles?

I appreciate any advice and help I can get.

Thanks,

Paul

Small tools are generally cheaper, (especially with end mills until you get to the tiny sizes)-- good for learning with since you're about guaranteed to do bad things to them. Parts and such are probably also easier and cheaper to get for the Sherline. That said, you'll want to use the bigger machines for some tasks, but smallish cutters and bits can generally be used on the big machines as well.

For a lathe, I'd get a set of standard tools to get you started, and then learn to grind them as well. Sherline has a good article online about tool bit grinding and even says they only offer the sets so people can learn what they're supposed to look like.

 

[wheelterrapin]

How important is a Rotary Table in model building? If I need one should I buy one for the Sherline, the little 4" or should I buy one for the Enco Bench Mill and if so what size would you recommend?

Paul

Folks, as I said in the welcome section, I am a wannabe machinist trying to self teach myself through books and videos as I have no machinist freinds in my area I can learn from. My question is this:

I have a Sherline Lathe and Sherline Mill as well as I have an older 12" Atlas Lathe and a newer Enco 2 HP Benchmill. Since I am interested in building model engines which tools would be best to use (Sherline tools or Atlas & Enco) and what tooling will I need for them to make the modles?

I appreciate any advice and help I can get.

Thanks,

Paul

Small tools are generally cheaper, (especially with end mills until you get to the tiny sizes)-- good for learning with since you're about guaranteed to do bad things to them. Parts and such are probably also easier and cheaper to get for the Sherline. That said, you'll want to use the bigger machines for some tasks, but smallish cutters and bits can generally be used on the big machines as well.

For a lathe, I'd get a set of standard tools to get you started, and then learn to grind them as well. Sherline has a good article online about tool bit grinding and even says they only offer the sets so people can learn what they're supposed to look like.

 

[mklotz]

There are plenty of model engine designs which can be built without an RT. However, once you get into the more complicated designs, you'll find it to be essential.

A 4" RT is, IMO, totally worthless. With allowance for clamps, it's unlikely you'll be able to handle a part larger than 1/2". Buy a 6" table and fit it with an 8" diameter sacrificial aluminum plate with lots of tapped holes for clamps. That way you'll have adequate working room without the weight of an 8" table.

I started out with a Unimat (similar to a Sherline) and quickly discovered, to my disappointment, that many commercially available standard-sized tools simply won't fit or would require me to make adaptors to use them. Accessories made for small equipment like Sherline won't transition gracefully to larger equipment. Plus, such accessories are more expensive than their conventional sized counterparts because, being a niche market, they don't benefit from the economies of scale.

My advice: Tool up your larger machines and save the Sherline(s) for really tiny work that requires spindle speeds unattainable on the big machines.

 

[Cedge]

Marv
You really do have excellent timing. You also seem to think along the same tracks upon which my mental train runs. I'm well into the middle of a rotary table for my mill. I've used your basic idea and added my own little changes to meet my own requirements.... okay, my wants.

The bottom base is 4x6, the rotary table is 5 7/8 diameter (you have to trim a wee bit when random using scrap metal). I've drilled 150 indexing holes on the rim... one row each of 40, 50 and 60. Make that 151 holes... the rotary table has a center hole for center indexing it on the mill. The table will be locked by a "shoe" for which I've still got to add the locking screw mechanism. this along with a simple indexing block will mount on the "porch" of the base.

The three rows of holes left my remaining metal too thin for the tie down slots, so I'd decided to do almost exactly what you describe.... add a sacrificial top plate with 10/24 holes centered on the 1/2 inch. I also want to slot the table top, which had me scratching me auld bald head again. I finally tumbled onto the idea of cutting the slots to within about 2 inches of the center and leaving the plate with a solid center. This would give me a single piece top instead of 4 small wedge shaped plates to keep tightened up. I figure I can mill out several of these at a go, using the not quite finished RT.

Internally, I've also left room to eventually install a worm gear drive.. when I finally decide to learn how to cut screws and broach gears on my lathe. Ahhh..... the joys of lonely late night self education. Not quite to final finish cuts, just yet, but I'm getting close.

Steve

 

[mklotz]

Steve,

More imitational flattery. My head is ballooning.

I put two rows of 1/4-20 tapped holes on orthogonal diameters on my sacrificial plate.
You should space the holes by a distance that is about half the length of the slot on the clamps you intend to use.

In retrospect, three rows of holes would have been better. If you're machining something "all the way around" and have to remove a clamp as you machine past it, you're left with the adjacent clamps 180 degrees apart if you only have two rows as I do. While this works ok for my small stuff, three rows would mean the remaining clamps would be closer to where I'm cutting.

While you're finishing your RT, scout around for old ball bearing races and the (precision) platter spacers from junked computer hard drives (save the magnets too).
These make excellent low profile 'risers' to get your work above the table surface for full circumferential machining.

You might also want to get some pipe and make some 'no step block required' clamps like I used in my 'bolt-on reference surfaces' fixture.

They're a lot easier to mount, adjust and dismount than the standard clamp that requires a step block.

 

[Cedge]

Marv...
I've already "stolen" your clamp photos (and a few others). I just haven't arrived at that part of the project yet....LOL. I've made the RT so that, at the present time, it has a slight bit of inherent surface to surface friction. It will offer me a bit more manual control until I learn enough to make the move to a worm gear drive. I'm just happy it went together with zero end play and just enough tolerance in the running fit to let my brake show work. With a 2 inch shaft down the well, the bearing will have to be wee a bit larger than the typical hard drive will yield.

I'm getting better, but I'm still very much a novice and my workarounds are sometimes less than elegant. Somehow, I do usually manage to achieve the desired functionality. Between you and John Moran (gadgetbuilder.com) , I've got enough tool projects to keep me out of the local bars well past my expected life span...LOL I'll post a few more photos once the brake mechanism is installed and working.

Steve

 

[mklotz]

Steve,

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I wasn't suggesting you use hard drive bearings as RT bearings.

If you want to machine the circumference of a part full-width, you need to elevate the part above the surface of the table in order to avoid cutting into the table. For a (roughly) circular part, an ideal spacer to accomplish this is an old ball bearing race - the outer cylindrical part of the bearing with the balls and inner race removed. For smaller parts, the precision cylindrical rings (roughly 2" diameter) used to separate the platters in a hard disk drive serve the same purpose.

 

[Cedge]

Okay... your train of thought runs the mainline tracks. Mine is just sitting here on a spur line....ROFL. Now I got ya. (reaching for two old hard drives I never threw out) Excellent idea and one promptly plagiarized. I've used bearing races that way for years, but never a hard drive spacer

I had an elderly fellow working for me once as a welder. At 89 he certainly qualified as elderly, but he loved to work and often got into trouble with his social security checks for working too many hours. I was in the shop one day and he had just finished up a project and was cleaning up before he began another. I've always been a dirty hands kind of guy and began helping him put things away, as we talked.

I picked up what appeared to be 2 pieces a broken spur gear, from one the semi trailer landing legs we were constantly repairing, and was about to toss them in the trash. Carol got hopping mad for me trying to throw away one of his best tools. I looked at him like he had lost his mind and he began laughing. Then he proceeded to point out my woeful ignorance of how it could possibly be a tool, let alone one of his best. Sharp witted... he was.

He grabbed an irregular piece of torch cut metal and his set of half spur gears and dragged my by the arm to his vise. He placed the irregular chunk of steel into the vice and asked me to secure it in a specific position, which I quite predictably failed to do. He then took his 2 pieces of gear and meshed the teeth so that the flats were facing the movable vise jaw and the oddly shaped piece of metal, providing flat surfaces at the required angle. He then demonstrated that he could provide flat grips at almost any angle, by simply offsetting the meshed teeth of the two gears against each other. It was even a self adjusting setup.

I had similar "broken gears" in my own box for many years, until some damned fool stole them. Gotta get me another set, now that you've triggered the memory. Damed useful, those... I think I'll need to cross post this to the tools and tips sections.

Thanks
Steve

 

[mklotz]

I thought everyone had two broken gears in his toolbox.

Another trick is to take a piece of gas pipe and cut it the same length as the vise jaws.
Slice it in half lengthwise. With the round side against the moving jaw, the two edges where cut will self-adjust in a vertical plane to clamp stock that is tapered top to bottom. This works as well in the bench vise as in the milling vise.

Basically, there is no such thing as junk. Everything is a tool whose mode of utilization might not yet have been discovered.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Paul: Unless you are committed to building really small models you will probably find yourself using the sherline as well as the larger machines.
I have a 9" southbend lathe and a import 7 x 1O I use the South bend most of the time but the mini lathe still gets a fair amount of use. Machining is very adaptive and there are many ways to set up and machine a given part. It depends on the machines available the materials available and the experience and or creativity of the machinist. There is not necessarily a right or wrong way. The un-safe way is the only wrong way. Some times you want to do a part a different way just to learn something new. Also some operations can be done on a mill or lathe again a matter of preference.
as far as basic tooling here is a quick list:

Lathe
1) drill chuck
2) live center
3) 4 jaw chuck you can live without a 3 jaw if needed but nice if in budget.
4) QC tool holder almost always used tool.
5) tool bit blanks learn to grind your own
6) Get a knurling tool that puts the force on the part not the lathe.
you can make one of these to save the budget.


Mill :
1) Vise
2) find some steel strapping and you have parrallels
3) tool holders or collet set
4) Mill cutters
5) fly cutter
6) edge finder/wigglers

both:
1) Full 115 pc drill index a good set from enco will be about $120
an decent import set will work USA made are superior.
2) a set of center drills
3) boring bars


Measuring/ layout tools
1) 6 inch calipers import digital are a good value
2) a quality 0-1 Micrometer.
3) a machinist square
4) some sort of indicator.
5) hermaphrodite/jenny calipers
6) 6 in rule

At some point a granite surface plate and height gage come in handy.
optical center punch buy or make

In my experience you are better off buying what you need to do a project . as the projects get more complex you will want to add tools.
Tin
__________________

 

[wheelterrapin]

Thanks Tin, this is a very nice list and something for me to start building towards, I have a lot of the items already but there are some I do not have but I will work towards getting them.

Many Thanks,

paul

Paul: Unless you are committed to building really small models you will probably find yourself using the sherline as well as the larger machines.
I have a 9" southbend lathe and a import 7 x 1O I use the South bend most of the time but the mini lathe still gets a fair amount of use. Machining is very adaptive and there are many ways to set up and machine a given part. It depends on the machines available the materials available and the experience and or creativity of the machinist. There is not necessarily a right or wrong way. The un-safe way is the only wrong way. Some times you want to do a part a different way just to learn something new. Also some operations can be done on a mill or lathe again a matter of preference.
as far as basic tooling here is a quick list:

Lathe
1) drill chuck
2) live center
3) 4 jaw chuck you can live without a 3 jaw if needed but nice if in budget.
4) QC tool holder almost always used tool.
5) tool bit blanks learn to grind your own
6) Get a knurling tool that puts the force on the part not the lathe.
you can make one of these to save the budget.


Mill :
1) Vise
2) find some steel strapping and you have parrallels
3) tool holders or collet set
4) Mill cutters
5) fly cutter
6) edge finder/wigglers

both:
1) Full 115 pc drill index a good set from enco will be about $120
an decent import set will work USA made are superior.
2) a set of center drills
3) boring bars


Measuring/ layout tools
1) 6 inch calipers import digital are a good value
2) a quality 0-1 Micrometer.
3) a machinist square
4) some sort of indicator.
5) hermaphrodite/jenny calipers
6) 6 in rule

At some point a granite surface plate and height gage come in handy.
optical center punch buy or make

In my experience you are better off buying what you need to do a project . as the projects get more complex you will want to add tools.
Tin
__________________

 

[lugnut]

That's a good list Tin, Had to check out my stuff to see if I was tooled and it looks good.
Thanks
Mel

 

[Julian]

Hi Paul,

I was in the same position as you last year. Some machinery, plenty of enthusiasm and plans but little tooling. I decided the best was to buy a cheap set of index cutter and then make everything else myself. This gives several advantages. You learn basic machining by trial and error. I find I learn far more by the errors than the successes. Making your own tooling means you quickly develop a logic for the processes needed and how to get around the lack of kit.

I started building an engine over a year ago but the process is slow to date. This is because as I hit another tool problem I built more and more kit to carry on the build. I have managed so far without a rotary table. Ingenuity will overcome any problem if you constantly think outside the box.

Keep going

Julian.

 

[Brian Rupnow]

The other day I was looking at plans on this site (actually it was a link to a members site) that had many plans for sale for engines built from bar stock, along with video's of some of these engines running. There was one rather intriguing beam engine with the axis of the crankshaft running at right angles to the beam. the plans were $12.00 American, I think. now I can't find the link, and I want to order the plans. Can someone help please.---Brian