The Characters Who Train Machinists

[rake60]

We are very fortunate here at HMEM to have a pool of experienced as well as less
than experienced machinists and hobbyists who are more than willing to share what
they know, or what they have learned along the way.

I am still amazed everyday by what this place has become.
And, a little frustrated by what the machining craft at large has become.

The crusty old craftsmen are dying off.
They are being replaced by tall skinny guys with salon manicures who have never
actually touched a machine but their computer programs tell them that machine
is capable of performing that operation and it will safely be 5% below the maximum
it's maximum capacity. When the machine overloads it is blamed on operator error.
Computers don't make errors!

In the old days, if you suggested pressing a machine to that point, the operator
would still be blamed, but in a different way. It would have been the cranky old
man standing there saying, "Go ahead and try it. Whatever damage it causes that
machine, expect the same for yourself!"

When I was an 18 year old apprentice those old guys used to scare me to death.
I listened to their advice and learned a lot from it!

Somewhere along the line that became a twisted perversion of listening to the
geeks in an office. When a machine overloads and damage is done to it, the question
is inevitable. "What Happened?"

Gee, I don't know. It looked so good on a computer screen....

I do miss the wisdom of a REAL machinist teaching the apprentice.
He didn't have a degree, and more often than not, didn't even have a High School diploma.
He learned his craft by doing it for 40 years. The greatest I notice is he never used his
little little finger to push up his safety glasses while trying to make a point.

This hobby and the craft of machining are dying.
They are being taken over by technology of the day.
It is a very profitable means of making multiple parts.
I still believe there will always be a need for a real machinist.

Here it is a personal challenge to make a part that fits another part to make an engine run.
Elsewhere it will be a C-O-C print handed to a machinist who can make that part for an
immediate need without the assistance of a programmer.

Would this be considered a rant?

I hope not!

Just my thoughts of what a machinist, professional or hobbyist, it today.
And, a big Thank You to all of the people who are still willing to share those
experiences and skills.

Rick

 

[cobra428]

rake60,
That's not a rant.....It's the truth. There is still some hands on machining for fixtures to hold the stuff in the "big box with the spray".
I'm a Mechanical Engineer and when I design certain things and go to the Proto shop I thank God there is 3 generations of machinist there.
Grandad 50 years of experience, son 30 years, grandson 2 years (he does the programing along with son). Grandad still works the Bridgeport and Claussing. When I need something done or need help, I go to Grandad. I'll hate to see the day he retires!

Tony

 

[Deanofid]

Doesn't sound like a rant, to me. Maybe I have similar thoughts on the matter.

Dean

 

[joeby]

Rick,

Your post is only stating the facts, manufacturing is in a sad state.

I started into the trade right after High School and served my apprenticeship in a shop full of men such as you describe. They took pride in their work, and the trade, and machining was considered a respectable career.

Those days are unfortunately gone. I remember having been told that it was just a temporary situation and manufacturing soon would be back, strong as ever. May be, hopefully my kids will get to see it.

Now, all the tools I had accumulated over the years reside in my home shop. I no longer work as a tradesman, machining is just a hobby now. I make the same hourly wage today as I did fifteen years ago as a toolmaker.

So, that ranting describes what should never have happened, The skills, determination, and pride that show in HMEM posts no longer exist in the workplace. That's a real shame.

Thanks for putting the time and effort into this site and making it what it is. It's great to be able to communicate with people who actually ARE interested in machining and metalworking, and appreciate the knowledge that goes with it. Keep up the good work!

Kevin

 

[NickG]

Funnily enough I was just talking / having a rant along the same lines with a colleague. We're supposed to be creating a centre of excellence for machining yet can still struggle with basic things. The knowledge and experience is gradually disappearing.

Tony, we've got basically 1 guy - equivalent of grandad at your place, that people go to now if they want something done properly. He's probably the only one that is adept on a manual lathe / milling machine. What happens when he goes, he's approaching retirement. Companies need a robust method of retaining this knowledge and the only way that can happen is the real machinists teaching the apprentices.

Nick

 

[gbritnell]

Rick, I understand what you're saying, to a point. I don't see it as a problem but as change. I apprenticed as a metal patternmaker. Today there are very few in this particular trade when at one time there were tens of thousands, why, change. In the teens and twenties almost everything had some type of casting as part of it, engines, light fixtures, door knobs, you name it. The patterns for these were made by patternmakers. As technology and manufacturing processes changed so did the trades that fathered them. Lets look at cars for example. I remember hearing old timers talking about getting 60,000 miles on their old Plymouth, look at the miles cars are capable of getting today. The oils of that era were paraffin based. When your 55 Ford starting making noise in the valve train a quick glance under the valve cover would show that everything was plugged up. The same with ignitions, 10-15,000 miles was about the limit for spark plugs, now they are capable of 100,000 miles.
Lets get back to the hobby we enjoy. It's true there aren't many old timers around to pass along all that great knowledge they had but that wisdom was used in manufacturing and that has changed. It's great to have forums such as this to share and pass along ideas and information about machining. When I go to the model engineering shows I look at the talent pool there and it's getting older and older. I don't believe that our numbers are being replaced at same rate as which we're losing them. It's all related to change. I'm sure the hobby will be around for many years after I'm gone but the only learning will be on line and or from books. Apprenticeships are gone, replaced by specialization and electronics, but that's the world we live in.
George D. Britnell

 

[black85vette]

George; I am in agreement with you. Change has had a major impact not just in machinist work but all over. I worked in electronics most of my life but saw the light at the end of the tunnel as an oncoming train and jumped ship. The need for highly skilled electronics techs has gone away as the cost of circuits has dropped to where they are expendable and not cost effective to repair. You see it in the way houses are built. Except for the high end luxury homes you won't find the fine cabinet and trim work of a master cabinet maker. Same with furniture. I am not sad about this. It means I can afford to buy a car, a home, furnishings, computers and a bunch of other things because the cost of making them has gone way down. Things I could not possibly afford if they were all made by expert craftsmen.

 

[cobra428]

Vette,
Pretty soon you won't be able to afford the cheap stuff. All the mfg'ing and support job's are going off shore!!

Just my 2 pennies worth

Tony

 

[Stan]

There will always be a need for skilled machinists, especially in the job shop. I went through the same progression in the electronics industry. Mass produced components on printed circuit boards made consumer electronics a through away item (even computers and TVs). Globalization eliminated most of the manufactures when they were absorbed by the giants.

That worked fine for the Ipod market, but what about the multi million dollar equipment that was no longer supported because the company was long gone. This opened up a gigantic market for the skilled electronic tech who could walk in, see a piece of equipment for the first time, and make it run. In some cases, it even involves making mechanical parts. A worn shaft will drive a $100k computer control crazy.

The same thing is holding true in the mechanical field. In my area there are dozens of job shops making parts for the oil industry. When a drilling rig that commands $200k a day breaks down, who do you get to make the part? The company that make the original was bought up by General Motors and Mr Obama doesn't know where they are now.

 

[putputman]

Rick, your post brings back a lot of old memories. I started in the trade in the 50's. Over the next 10 years I worked for several differant companies. At each job there were a couple of old timers that would take me under their wing and mentor me. Since then I have done the same to several younger guys that I could see had a real talent for the trade.

Now I am using any skills I have left to build hobby engines and am loving it.

I do watch these young machinist work with the CNC mills and wish that I was about 20 years younger now. I would sure as hell try to learn how to run one. When I follow guys like George Britnell making parts for his engines with all the intricate profile that requires a tremendous amount of skill and hand work, I think, wouldn't it be nice to have a CNC. I wouldn't trade the skills I have for anything but some of the new skills and equipment would sure be fun to go along with the old ones.

 

[mcr]

New to the hobby with no experience I met a new member of the model boating club Mick just retired with over 40 years experience in engineering.We hit it off from the start and at his suggestion we both built a twin cylinder slide valve marine engine I was about 3 steps behind him.
Each week he told me how to achieve the next part of the build the right way.
After about 14 months the engine was completed the joy of seeing it run was fantastic.
Now to the point I work in a school a new state of the art school, show case we have even had a Royal visit.The new workshops have little more than a fret saw and a soldering iron for student use in addition to the usual handtools.Where will the next Mick come from?

 

[kustomkb]

Gee, I don't know. It looked so good on a computer screen....

I had a computer model sent to me which had .005" wide grooves .015" deep, running back and forth on the face of the part.

I made it, and when the kid came down to look at it, he sys "when are you going to put the grooves in?

I put it under the microscope so he could see.

"I didn't realise it was so small..."


Machines don't have an undo button like their computers do.

 

[ieezitin]

Rick.
Its not a rant its your observation.

The requirement of Mechanical skills in our labor force has diminished substantially, which in turn the teachers are no longer needed. I don’t like it but it’s a fact.

But I believe there is always going to be talent out there. Either mentor or student. Leonardo de Vinci, Isaac Newton both self taught masters in there subject.

Being a machinist or carpenter boiler maker, is a wonderful thing, but most of all I believe having those skills is an inward virtue, which in turn feeds the character of the individual, at the same time of allowing him or her to make a honorable living.

One thing in common of the aforementioned gentlemen is that there work and creations are still with us today, still being used and awed at, that was there contribution to society, but I really believe it was through there altruistic need to acquire knowledge and create art was there main inward driver.

Is it selfish to desire and find knowledge, gain skills and flourish? . Only if you keep them to yourself.

My mother told me two things in life to be true. Money is the rout of all evil and knowledge is power!.

Rick, I hear and understand your line of thought, you’re a talented man with an abundance of skills, this is your opportunity to share your knowledge and pass on your acquired expertise to all here on this forum. Thus you will be contributing to overcoming the problem you have expressed in this post.

All the best. Anthony.

 

[ariz]

I liked to read this thread: many interesting points of view, everyone of which is respectable

but I have a (dumb) question: what it means 'rant'? :-[
I looked at the dictionary but didn't understand anyway...

 

[cobra428]

ariz,
You won't find "rant" in the dictionary.

Rant= Speaking your mind about something that annoys you

Tony

 

[Maryak]

Tony,

Lousy dictionary you have mate: ;D ;D

Rant:
Use bombastic language - Declaim, recite theatrically; preach noisily
Piece of ranting, tirade; empty turgid talk.

Based on that lot Rick's initial post is definitely not a rant. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob

 

[cobra428]

Bob

Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

I like your dictionary better than mine!

Tony

 

[mklotz]

You won't find "rant" in the dictionary.

Sure you will...

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rant

 

[cobra428]

Hey Marv,
Who would of thunk it :big:

I guess you

Tony

 

[Troutsqueezer]

Hey guys, I just got into this hobby and I'm only 59 so there's some young blood in here now. :big: