RUST
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rickharris
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To get rust you need moisture and oxygen excluding either will prevent rust.
keep workshop warm - avoiding moisture. Use something to coat tools - exclude moisture and air.
Keeping a small block of camphor in the draw/cupboard with your tools is a very old fashioned way to prevent rust (but effective IF you can get the camphor - Ebay is your friend here)
Oil after use, a wipe with a drop of motor oil every one in a while works. I tend to do this and have a blitz every few weeks when I tidy up.
I found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvitqo7mSo&eurl=http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4rvitqo7mSo this video after I posted.
keep workshop warm - avoiding moisture. Use something to coat tools - exclude moisture and air.
Keeping a small block of camphor in the draw/cupboard with your tools is a very old fashioned way to prevent rust (but effective IF you can get the camphor - Ebay is your friend here)
Oil after use, a wipe with a drop of motor oil every one in a while works. I tend to do this and have a blitz every few weeks when I tidy up.
I found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvitqo7mSo&eurl=http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4rvitqo7mSo this video after I posted.
The bane of our existence. It is really really hard to stop and it just plain sucks to come back to a model a few years later and find the bright parts starting to rust.
The best way to prevent rust is to paint the steel. if the parts are supposed to be bright, clear lacquer can work, but it does affect the appearance and is not as durable as paint. Next is keeping it oiled, or giving a shot of wd40 every now again. the WD40 is supposed to displace water. messy and smelly for finished pieces on the mantel.
Another strategy is to blue it, the cold blues work ok. this creates a tiny bit of surface oxidation that tends to retard further oxidation.....but, you loose the bright appearance. I've also found that putting a proper finish on helps avoid rust, progressively finer files then a bit of fine emery - but no one here would ever leave a part with tool marks in it, right?
I'm increasingly of the opinion that for parts where only the authentic appearance is bright steel, is to make them from stainless. Bill Huxhold, one of the best ME's, does this for all parts; makes everything from free cutting stainless, say 303. It machines to a better finish than than mild steel and you never have to worry about that valve gear rusting. Problem is I already have so much steel in stock so i haven't yet followed my own advice.
Lastly, as Rick says, pay some attention your shop's climate. Big temperature swings between day and night especially with humid summer air can create a lot of condensation. A cover will provide some help (stuff in a drawer fares better than on the bench), as will heating the shop to keep it a constant temperature. A dehumidifier is a must for the warmer months.
The best way to prevent rust is to paint the steel. if the parts are supposed to be bright, clear lacquer can work, but it does affect the appearance and is not as durable as paint. Next is keeping it oiled, or giving a shot of wd40 every now again. the WD40 is supposed to displace water. messy and smelly for finished pieces on the mantel.
Another strategy is to blue it, the cold blues work ok. this creates a tiny bit of surface oxidation that tends to retard further oxidation.....but, you loose the bright appearance. I've also found that putting a proper finish on helps avoid rust, progressively finer files then a bit of fine emery - but no one here would ever leave a part with tool marks in it, right?
I'm increasingly of the opinion that for parts where only the authentic appearance is bright steel, is to make them from stainless. Bill Huxhold, one of the best ME's, does this for all parts; makes everything from free cutting stainless, say 303. It machines to a better finish than than mild steel and you never have to worry about that valve gear rusting. Problem is I already have so much steel in stock so i haven't yet followed my own advice.
Lastly, as Rick says, pay some attention your shop's climate. Big temperature swings between day and night especially with humid summer air can create a lot of condensation. A cover will provide some help (stuff in a drawer fares better than on the bench), as will heating the shop to keep it a constant temperature. A dehumidifier is a must for the warmer months.
BobWarfield
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The firearms crowd is all over this problem, and there are many products sold there that work well. If you search the web you can find lots of back to back comparisons of these products where they took bare steel, applied the rust preventative, and then exposed the steel to salt water sprays to see which protects better. That's a lot harsher environment than hopefully our tooling and models will ever see. Here is just one of many such reviews:
http://www.thegunzone.com/rust.html
Based on reading several such reviews I adopted a product called Break-Free for my shop. Whenever new tooling or a machine arrives at the shop, I sit down at my worktable, wipe the cosmolene off with some kerosene, and then immediately apply a little Break-Free. It goes on easy with a paper towel and doesn't leave any nasty residue, just shiny steel. I keep a big pump bottle handy.
There are many other products. Boe-Shield is another such. WD-40 is not really a very good preventative. For one thing, it has the kerosene in it that removes the oil. It's excellent for a lot of other purposes in the shop, but get a first class rust inhibitor and you'll be happier. I live within sight of the ocean and have no rust issues in my shop, thank goodness. FWIW, I will apply a little break-free with a paper towel to my machine ways and other parts of the machine about once every 6 months too.
Another thought: I never throw away a dessicant pack. I toss them in the back of my tool drawers. If you wanted to be particularly diligent, you could bake them to re-activate them first, but I don't bother.
Cheers,
BW
http://www.thegunzone.com/rust.html
Based on reading several such reviews I adopted a product called Break-Free for my shop. Whenever new tooling or a machine arrives at the shop, I sit down at my worktable, wipe the cosmolene off with some kerosene, and then immediately apply a little Break-Free. It goes on easy with a paper towel and doesn't leave any nasty residue, just shiny steel. I keep a big pump bottle handy.
There are many other products. Boe-Shield is another such. WD-40 is not really a very good preventative. For one thing, it has the kerosene in it that removes the oil. It's excellent for a lot of other purposes in the shop, but get a first class rust inhibitor and you'll be happier. I live within sight of the ocean and have no rust issues in my shop, thank goodness. FWIW, I will apply a little break-free with a paper towel to my machine ways and other parts of the machine about once every 6 months too.
Another thought: I never throw away a dessicant pack. I toss them in the back of my tool drawers. If you wanted to be particularly diligent, you could bake them to re-activate them first, but I don't bother.
Cheers,
BW
compound driver 2
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HI
On my coal fired traction engines much of the steel work is unpainted (conrod motion and piston rod valve rod) After a steaming session as a rule the engine is covered with coal dust and water. In all the years I have been steaming I have not had rust form past a few spots on wheels. The trick, well I oil the engine down whilst hot and then just let it be. Once the coal and soot is off most of the steel is warm and dry so takes the oil well.
Oiled it will stay rust free for a few years.
Cheers Kevin
On my coal fired traction engines much of the steel work is unpainted (conrod motion and piston rod valve rod) After a steaming session as a rule the engine is covered with coal dust and water. In all the years I have been steaming I have not had rust form past a few spots on wheels. The trick, well I oil the engine down whilst hot and then just let it be. Once the coal and soot is off most of the steel is warm and dry so takes the oil well.
Oiled it will stay rust free for a few years.
Cheers Kevin
For parts storage, zip lock bags see a lot of use in my shop. For steel parts, I will coat them with oil, then seal them in a bag with as little air in it as possible. I haven't had any problems with rust this way, and I have the added bonus of keeping any dust off of the parts as well. However, my shop is climate controlled, so rust isn't a huge issue.
My neighbor does woodworking in a shop without climate control. To combat rust on his tools, he uses gun oil on his tools, and his bare work surfaces get a coat of auto wax after every use. His tools look as good now as they did when he got them. The wax idea may be of benefit for things like drill presses, milling tables, and things of that sort where you have a large bare surface that needs protection.
My neighbor does woodworking in a shop without climate control. To combat rust on his tools, he uses gun oil on his tools, and his bare work surfaces get a coat of auto wax after every use. His tools look as good now as they did when he got them. The wax idea may be of benefit for things like drill presses, milling tables, and things of that sort where you have a large bare surface that needs protection.
C
Circlip
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Don't know if we can still get it Firebird, but on our side of the pond I used to buy the equivalent of WD40 which went by the name of "Duck Oil." From trade suppliers WD was £26 a gallon, DO was £13, just as good. Ian.
Hi
Thanks for the tips everyone. I'm in the motor trade CIRCLIP so have used duck oil in the past. We used to buy it in gallon cans and put it in small spray type oil cans. It seemed to work similar to wd40 but was definitely a different product to the aerosols. I haven't seen it about for a while but I'll have a look. I used to be a firearm owner until our government decided to ban the ownership but thats another story/debate/argument. I remember when down at the range if you got a scratch on your pride and joy the resident dealer would wipe it with a cloth and some magic liquid and hey presto the blueing was as good as new. Is this blueing product available? How does it work? Is blue the only colour you can get?
cheers
Thanks for the tips everyone. I'm in the motor trade CIRCLIP so have used duck oil in the past. We used to buy it in gallon cans and put it in small spray type oil cans. It seemed to work similar to wd40 but was definitely a different product to the aerosols. I haven't seen it about for a while but I'll have a look. I used to be a firearm owner until our government decided to ban the ownership but thats another story/debate/argument. I remember when down at the range if you got a scratch on your pride and joy the resident dealer would wipe it with a cloth and some magic liquid and hey presto the blueing was as good as new. Is this blueing product available? How does it work? Is blue the only colour you can get?
cheers
I used to work in a paper mill where we had large cutters with steel tables.
Every once in a while we would use furniture polish on the tables to prevent rust. If this was done none of them ever rusted even when the roof leaked on them.
I have used this method on large surfaces although I don't believe I would use it on small parts.
Every once in a while we would use furniture polish on the tables to prevent rust. If this was done none of them ever rusted even when the roof leaked on them.
I have used this method on large surfaces although I don't believe I would use it on small parts.
BobWarfield
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firebird said:
There are lots of cold bluing products available. I've used a couple of products I got from Brownell's and liked them. They're creams, so they're ideal for small parts and occassional uses. Caswell has a cold bluing system for larger (bucket) production quantities that is a dipping process. The two cream products I tried were Dicropan T-4 and Oxpho-Blue. Both worked well. I used them to blue the faux-camlocks for a chuck backplate I was making:
To use them just clean the parts with mineral spirits and then apply the cream with a paper towel. You have to wear gloves as finger oils will really mess up the finish and the stuff is an acid anyway you wouldn't want to get on your skin. My conclusion was that the Dicropan looked darker, almost black, and seemed to go on more evenly. On the other hand, the Oxpho-Blue showed more blues and was a prettier finish despite it being less even. All things considered, I decided I preferred the Oxpho-Blue look:
Parkerizing is also a common firearms finish that's easy to do at home and will protect the metal. It is a different shade. There are also quite a few plating systems available from places like Caswell or Eastwood. Powder coatings are an option as are various industrial coatings chosen for the temperature resistance (like ceramic headers) or low friction (various baked on moly coatings). It's amazing what can be done in a home shop anymore.
Of course anodizing is a whole other subject and can be done on aluminum or titanium.
Cheers,
BW
compound driver 2
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Hi
On my gauge 1 loco I had all the brass work flash plated with gold to prevent tarnish it works well and dont cost a lot.
Steel can be protected with lite oil or lindseed oil. The latter forms a skin that turns a mucky brown but keeps the water and more important the air out.
cheers kevin
On my gauge 1 loco I had all the brass work flash plated with gold to prevent tarnish it works well and dont cost a lot.
Steel can be protected with lite oil or lindseed oil. The latter forms a skin that turns a mucky brown but keeps the water and more important the air out.
cheers kevin
BobWarfield
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I almost forgot, but hot oil is another type of treatment that's easy to do:
That's a machinist's jack done by Dave Hylands that I've always thought came out really nice with hot oil:
http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Projects/Machinist-Jack/
He says he just cooked the jacks in his BBQ for 30 minutes and then plunged them into 20W-50 oil.
Cheers,
BW
That's a machinist's jack done by Dave Hylands that I've always thought came out really nice with hot oil:
http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Projects/Machinist-Jack/
He says he just cooked the jacks in his BBQ for 30 minutes and then plunged them into 20W-50 oil.
Cheers,
BW
Hello;
My first post here (new to Model Engineering - picked up a Taig lathe). Has anyone tried the Birchwood Casey "Plum Brown" bluing sold by Brownells? Is the surface color similar to what is achieved by using the oil technique described by Dave Hylands? I prefer the look for steel as it's similar to hard anodizing of aluminum.
Garry
My first post here (new to Model Engineering - picked up a Taig lathe). Has anyone tried the Birchwood Casey "Plum Brown" bluing sold by Brownells? Is the surface color similar to what is achieved by using the oil technique described by Dave Hylands? I prefer the look for steel as it's similar to hard anodizing of aluminum.
Garry
PTsideshow
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On the Hot oil finishes, The old way was to get them orange hot and wipe them with a rag in old oil, repeat as needed to achieve the color desired.
The problem with old motor oils now is that all the synthetics now and the additives in them, not counting all the bits and stuff picked up in the engines. You don't know what it is if the fumes and smoke can be toxic or hazardous. Short or long term exposure. Head aches, stomach and other minor seeming problems.
It is used and been used by blacksmiths, and sculpture artists for a long long time.
The new suggested steps are
The great thing with the lower temperature is you are not effecting the part much if that is a concern, temper, hardness.
The oil is caramelized and is turned into a carbon coating that fills the surface pores.
The problem with old motor oils now is that all the synthetics now and the additives in them, not counting all the bits and stuff picked up in the engines. You don't know what it is if the fumes and smoke can be toxic or hazardous. Short or long term exposure. Head aches, stomach and other minor seeming problems.
It is used and been used by blacksmiths, and sculpture artists for a long long time.
The new suggested steps are
- Heat to black heat or so
- Use as stated before linseed or boiled linseed oil, any of the cooking type oils Canola has a higher heat point like I believe peanut also does than say corn oil
- You can then dip, spray, spritz, wipe or pour on the part.
- again you can repeat as needed to achieve the needed color
The great thing with the lower temperature is you are not effecting the part much if that is a concern, temper, hardness.
The oil is caramelized and is turned into a carbon coating that fills the surface pores.
PTsideshow
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Since for our English members the gun supplies may be hard to get.
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/index.html is the place for all metal coating needs or just info on it. they have a wealth of information on just about every kind of coating, plating,paint powder coat etc.
Plus they do orders to most countries.
Another source for finishing. Is this sitehttp://www.finishing.com/Letters/index.html
They have a section for hobbyist, and it covers the whole finishing universe. Ted is extremely knowledgeable, and if you can't find answer in the search mode. it might take a week or so for answer to show up. but with a little reading of the heading you generally can find it with out submitting a question.
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/index.html is the place for all metal coating needs or just info on it. they have a wealth of information on just about every kind of coating, plating,paint powder coat etc.
Plus they do orders to most countries.
Another source for finishing. Is this sitehttp://www.finishing.com/Letters/index.html
They have a section for hobbyist, and it covers the whole finishing universe. Ted is extremely knowledgeable, and if you can't find answer in the search mode. it might take a week or so for answer to show up. but with a little reading of the heading you generally can find it with out submitting a question.
I just use WD40 on all the steel tools kept in the shed. I bought a big 5 litre bottle years ago and a pump spray, Once in a while I go out in the shed and scent mark my stuff with a quick spray. Personally I like the smell, it's like an aftershave - vices, machine tools, pillar drill...
B
Bogstandard
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Alan,
You have to be rather careful with WD40, it does nasty things to circuit boards and some o-ring seals.
John
You have to be rather careful with WD40, it does nasty things to circuit boards and some o-ring seals.
John
zeusrekning
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Starret M1 is a beautiful thing. Thin oil to keep the parts from rusting.
Tim
Tim
Lew Hartswick
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Move to Southern AZ or NM . Been here 20 yrs and havent seen any rust on anything except a peice
of steel that had been cleaned with H Cl and not oiled.
...lew...
of steel that had been cleaned with H Cl and not oiled.
...lew...
C
Circlip
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WD is great for cleaning slides that have a rust coating by gently scrubbing using a "Scotchbrite" pad, but you are better using a proprietary oil on the surfaces for long term prevention. On our condense ridden island, it may disperse water but long term it's also pretty effective at retaining drops on the surface. Regards Ian.
