Newbie and the Flywheel(s)

[Foozer]

“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
Theodore Roosevelt


The time has come the Walrus said, ya he forgot however about the bride who lacks mechanical understanding. So after replacing the clutch in her car again . . . time to start teasing a flywheel out of some stock.

I can see it hiding in there, three tapered spokes, its just how the heck am I gonna get it out. First thing I suppose is to establish some reference points that regardless of how many times I end up fiddling with the stock I can always return to a known state.

So I stare at it and decide I need these three points that i can index to, one set each side. OK, now as I do not have a RT how to evenly space the desired points went thru many incantations mostly ending in Nope thats a waste. Hand lay them out, not gonna happen for me, be a mile plus a block off that way. So the DUH came to mind and a quick wip up returned the following gizmo. . . . . . . . . . Chuckles over

Then saw blades are cheap and accurately cut. A simple spindle and some double stick tape to hold the stock to the blade gives me the poor mans version of a round de round measuring device. Blade is 24 teeth so with a drop pin engaging one tooth the first of my future reference points is located. Turn blade 8 teeth and do the next mark. One more and this side is done.

To do the other side, removed stock and spotted holes in the saw same as the blank stock. set a small ball bearing at each point, replaced stock setting the previous little divit holes over the ball bearings, secured it down just enough oomph to maintain position with a short hunk of stock and bolt in spindle (not shown) spot drilled the other three and now I have evenly spaced points of reference on both sides of the future flywheel.

Figure that whatever error is inherient to the saw tooth spacing will be reduced, is reduced as one gets closer to the center of rotation. Something like that.

So, step one is done and I'm working this out with AL before trying it on brass. Time will tell if stone axes and flint knives will do this job or not

 

[Kermit]

nice adaptation there Foozer. ;D

 

[Foozer]

nice adaptation there Foozer. ;D

One thing for sure, if its oddball I'll find it. I cant even draw it out right. Best is following attempt at what i want it to look like shown in my working up a jig to cut some of it out. (the straight sides of the spokes) Worry about the curved portions later. Desire the spokes to taper in about 6 degrees from the inner hub to the outer ring. Do have an idea on how to do it with the lathe, which should be as entertaining as the saw blade gizmo. Me thinks a lot of coffee is gonna be required for this attempt.

 

[Foozer]

“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
Theodore Roosevelt​

Finally got to a point where some actually part making can begin. Plan is to make two of em so a repeatable methodology to the cutting is the only way i can do it. "e.g. JIG" New face plate made up for this task which turns out to be a tad less than simple than i first thought. As I am going to try and have some tapered spokes the mounting of the stock became a bit of a mind tease for me. As the angle of the stock is pulled away from the face plate, the shaft center line changes. As my choice of angle was 6 degrees it worked out to about a 0.078 inch change.

Used my fancy dancy poor mans index jig to set 6 points on the perimeter of the stock, subtracted 0.078 from that diameter and located an index point into the face plate. Drilled and tapped this index for a 10-24, set in a pointed screw at 0.100 above the plate surface. (6 o'clock position) Made a small 6 degree tapered shim and fastened that to the face plate. last index at the 12 o'clock is another 10-24 pointed screw to hopefully the stock will, as it goes through its relocation's for metal removal some sort of relative standard can be maintained.

Other issues that have come to mind is to account for the stocks angle when cutting around the inner hub. Have to remember to increase its diameter enough to leave the inner portion close to finish size without hosing up the hub itself. (account for the 6 degree offset). The outer ring I'll twist my brain over later in coming up with an acceptable radius that will give an appealing look within the limits of my meager abilities.

This may turn out to be one hunk of scrap, but a learning experance none the less.

 

[bearcar1]

Greetings Foozer, An interesting and ingenious method of indexing. I have seen that one done before but have never had cause to try it. I certainly am not laughing as you should see some of the 'oddball' setups I have done in the past due to not having access to a RT. Does your lathe have a top slide on the compound? If yes, couldn't you machine the tapers using it to achieve the desired 6* of taper?

 

[Foozer]

Greetings Foozer, An interesting and ingenious method of indexing. I have seen that one done before but have never had cause to try it. I certainly am not laughing as you should see some of the 'oddball' setups I have done in the past due to not having access to a RT. Does your lathe have a top slide on the compound? If yes, couldn't you machine the tapers using it to achieve the desired 6* of taper?

Lathe does have a top slide and along those lines the thought did occur 'bout halfway through making this gizmo. Had a hunk of 1/2" angle that already had some slots cut into it, so figured an adjustable holder could be made so I could with some degree of accuracy drill the required holes into the flywheel defining the spokes. Some brass round stock set on a movable plate, couple 1/4 - 20s to clamp it down, few bits and bobs for setup and, well time shall tell. Also to use it to cut out the spokes, at least I hope so Thats when the light went on with the loud DUH! Set it at 6* and poof! the spoke angle is done.

Dont know which route I shall take, still favor face plate work, or the solving of "How To" is perhaps the satisfaction ityself more than the finished product.

 

[Foozer]

“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
Theodore Roosevelt​

Went the face plate route and got the rough out on the flywheel done. Three tapered surfaces without to much fanfare. Takes a lot longer to get the setup than the actual cutting.

Time to set the stock on a flat plate and measure each face for depth. Should have about 0.050 excess for the finish left WAS SURE THE TOOL POST WAS TIGHT, well it moved, so what was going to be the front face now becomes the rear face, the inner hub dia on that side is flexible. So I'm thinking a bit of sandpaper 'tween the tool holder and base might reduce the chance of movement. Could just do a 2-eye tight but that sinking feeling of the bolt getting looser is one pleasure I'd rather avoid.

Still dont know how this will turn out, kinda like the split taper line, would look good to have that feature as a spoke center line.

 

[Macca]

Does your lathe have a top slide on the compound? If yes, couldn't you machine the tapers using it to achieve the desired 6* of taper?

By angling the top slide what you are producing is a cone. That means that the face of each spoke will be curved. The way Foozer has done it means he has three distinct flat surfaces (a triangular pyramid) meaning the spokes will have flat faces. (Or 'V' shaped, depending on placement.)
I don't think I would have even considered the faceplate approach before, but know that I know it gives a significantly different result I will keep the technique in mind. The only thing to watch out for is to make sure you cut to the same depth each time, otherwise the flat areas will be different sizes.

 

[bearcar1]

I agree there Macca, when I first read the post I thought that the spokes were going to be either thicker at the hub end and tapering to thin at the rim, axially or the other way around and could not for the life of me see where the design was headed, under those assumptions. Now that I have actually seen what has been accomplished, I understand better. I like the idea of having the 'peaked' spokes. They could be quite attractive and give a certain look to a model.

BC1

 

[Foozer]

“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
Theodore Roosevelt​

Me thinks Roosevelt never tried to cut out a flywheel This bite of the apple is getting a bit chewy.

Set up the trial AL flywheel in the jig I made that attaches to the cross slide. Idea was to simulate a mill. It gives me some X & Y travel with the lathe feed screw furnishing the Y (I think those are the correct terms) So once the 0,0 position is found I can move the stock to the coordinates required to spot the holes that will define the spokes.

Limitations or design issues have cropped up with this method, its not a mill nor do I have a rotary table, so adjustments to the spoke angles need to be made to fit within these limits. Smallest degree of accurate rotation I can deal with using this gizmo is 15*, drawing calls for 12 and that's just not gonna happen. Learn and adjust as one goes along.

Bride just blew the back window out on her car, slammed it down (hatchback) with something a bit bigger than the enclosed area and POOF! there goes $329.00 us bucks. Last month she blows the clutch, hate to think what May will bring. You know if I had a mill I'd just try and get it to do things best suited for some other machine.

 

[itowbig]

watching with great intrest. very creative with the saw blade . many thank u's for showing us your work.

 

[mklotz]

The saw blade is indeed a good way to make a divider. (You can tell you're a real machinist if you count the teeth on every saw blade you see, fondly hoping for a prime number.)

However, manual layout of any even multiple of six divisions is dead simple. (And, obviously, once you've got six divisions you also have three.)

For six divisions, scribe a circle (radius doesn't matter) with your dividers. Then, without altering the setting of the dividers, begin laying out divisions on the circle. You'll automatically get exactly six since the radius of any circle is also equal to the chord length if divided into six segments.

Use another pair of dividers (so you won't disturb the setting on the first) to bisect one of the six arcs. Then, using the original dividers, go around the circle again. Now you've got twelve divisions. Repeat as necessary to get 24, 48, ... divisions.

 

[Foozer]

However, manual layout of any even multiple of six divisions is dead simple. (And, obviously, once you've got six divisions you also have three.)

For six divisions, scribe a circle (radius doesn't matter) with your dividers. Then, without altering the setting of the dividers, begin laying out divisions on the circle. You'll automatically get exactly six since the radius of any circle is also equal to the chord length if divided into six segments.

Use another pair of dividers (so you won't disturb the setting on the first) to bisect one of the six arcs. Then, using the original dividers, go around the circle again. Now you've got twelve divisions. Repeat as necessary to get 24, 48, ... divisions.

If I read it right, it follows this diag

Slick as Duck Poo, thanks for the method from this math challenged one

 

[mklotz]

Yes, indeed. You've got it.

For divisions other than multiples of six, you can use the CHORD program on my page. You input the number of divisions and the diameter of the circle and it responds with the chord length. Set your dividers to the chord length* and mark off the circle. Not as accurate as an indexer but often good enough to get the job done and you don't need to try to find a saw blade with 11 (or whatever) teeth.

--
* Most easily done with a scale that has engraved divisions. Place one divider point in the "1" division and the other point in the chord+1 division. With engraved divisions you can "feel" when you're in the right one.

Another way to do this is with a pair of beater calipers. Set the calipers to the chord length and use the sharp points on the inside measurement jaws to divide the circle. Obviously, this is abuse of the tool (hence the beater comment) but, if you're gentle and don't do this on a regular basis, you'll get by.

 

[Foozer]

Yes, indeed. You've got it.

For divisions other than multiples of six, you can use the CHORD program on my page. You input the number of divisions and the diameter of the circle and it responds with the chord length. Set your dividers to the chord length* and mark off the circle. Not as accurate as an indexer but often good enough to get the job done and you don't need to try to find a saw blade with 11 (or whatever) teeth.

So you were the one watching me at the hardware

I have downloaded a few of your programs, the playing around inputting various configurations really helps with the "How To" for layouts

 

[Foozer]

“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
Theodore Roosevelt​

Try number 2, just did not like the first one. Must remember to account for the cutting tool width when determining the start and stop points. Also changed the tapered shim that goes between the stock and faceplate from not quite wide enough to wider than the stocks diameter. Without the full support , well much better now. An actual workable piece thats awaiting the next OOPS

Surfaces measure out to equal depth +/- 0.005 thou, now its time to figure out the actual spoke layout pattern. 3 with a flat face of with the V line down the center. First choice lot simpler, guess its time to flip the coin

 

[Foozer]

“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
Theodore Roosevelt​

Time to make the ol AA109 work now

Well there was no way around it, had to get a small RT. Little 3" job from Harbor Fright. layout on a flywheel that would just have holes as a pattern, no problem, but spokes, that bird requires a fancier shotgun.

So mounted the RT up in the lathe on the cross slide accessory gizmo. Took a bit to locate the 0,0 point having to kinda view it all sideways.

Worked out the hole pattern

Plan on using a 3/8 end mill 2-flute to cut the holes as the faces are angled.
Got lots of time and plenty of coffee.

 

[Foozer]

“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
Theodore Roosevelt​

Well, that bite of the Apple, lets just say it was green. The attempted method may be possible and I think I'll give it another shot after I get some more metal cutting time under the belt

So, some aspirin and a look at what remains, its off to plan B

Got a nice hunk of brass ring left from the adventure, Hmm, a piece of 1/4" AL flat stock, OK another adventure to embark upon. Fit the AL into the ring with a brass hub type flywheel. Shall cut out the spokes then fit it up. This seems a tad less ambitious, shall see how it goes

Cleaned up the rim and cut a small recess for the AL to be pressed against. Thinking around a 0.002 - 0.003 interference fit should hold it. Cool of the AL and warm the brass, squeeze it together in the press, when its back at room temp shouldn't budge.

This is addicting, keep putting off the other things need doing around the place

 

[Maryak]

Foozer,

Sorry things didn't go according to Hoyle, but that's the way the mop flops sometimes.

Just a thought but would it be possible to cut the spkes 1st and then do your very nice trick with the faceplate. ???

Best Regards
Bob

 

[Kermit]

I truly admire your "stuff" Foozer. Never say die. Unless your talking to the metal, of course. ;D

I'm currently "trying" different cuts and angles with my tools. It hasn't happened yet, but soon, I'm gonna break or throw something just because I'm new and don't know anything yet. It makes me just a little hesitant everytime I turn the lathe on. Wondering and then re-thinking it again and still not being "sure" until after I've switched it on. Just knowing that its bound to happen and not knowing WHEN.

AHHHHHH! The suspense of it all. ;D


respectfully,
Kermit