Let's talk cutter grinders

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timo_gross

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Similar problem like in the recent milling machine thread? Only difference I am upgrading from nothing to maybe giving it a thought.

A grinding machine for sharpening tools. I was considering this Hemingway Kits Quorn Mk3 - Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder a fun project for sure, but not very cheap. (it is what it is, not intended as complaint )

Dbitgrinder.pngA running machine like this is in the same price range as the Quorn kit. ( it comes with the work done, and without the fun of making it. And I think the quorn looks nicer on the shelf :) )
Question: are these two comparable? If I understand it correct the green thing is a copy of older German Deckel machines, that are if useable more expensive 2nd hand.

Now I stumbled into this.
IMG_3879[1].JPG
It is about two thousand British Money. 3.2 x as expensive as a quorn unfinished kit. I guess shipping for the Kit will be in the same range as shippig the white Japanese colleague.
It says it is a "nihon seimitsu Co.Ltd" EG-100. I was not able to find any internet information.

Now I wonder if anyone has a comment. I do not have any more pictures, information or whatsoever. I am going to visit the machine on Saturday. Any suggestions what to look for are welcome.

Greetings Timo
 

goldstar31

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Timo

Yes and how long is a piece of string?
IMHO it all depends on what on what you want to grind. It is possible to get a tool to sharpen lathes tools and the ends of milling cutters and work from the excellent plans from Eccentric Engineering or buy a set of plans for thr Tinker for about???? 80 Canadian dollars or - literally the sky being the limit.
You can buy a Chinese Deckel clone and -limited.
Recently, I pointed a person here to the plans for the Bonelle and the Mini Bonelle.
Strangely, I'm or was going through the Mark3 Quorn plans to see what was "New PussyCat' compared to my old Mark1.
The other factor is how eay or how difficult is a tool to set up?
Arnold Throp of Dore Engineering and associated with Hemingwaykits - improved the Westbury Milling Machine and built a Mark1 Quorn but was using the predecessor of the Hemingwaykits Worden and called the Kennet. He found that the old Kennet was great for 'touching up' the lathe tool whilst was in use. Clears throat-- I have a Kennet!
So I have mentioned a fraction of what is or has been in my little home workdhop but I have only the vaguest clue regarding your requirements and- err you much disposable income you are prepared to spend.

Regards

Norman


and I have on extended loan a Black and Decker professional drill grinder
 

SmithDoor

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If using end mills after you sharpen the cutter it now under size.

I just buy new end mill.
If using a mill/gear cutter i will sharpen but I do this on a lathe

Dave

Similar problem like in the recent milling machine thread? Only difference I am upgrading from nothing to maybe giving it a thought.

A grinding machine for sharpening tools. I was considering this Hemingway Kits Quorn Mk3 - Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder a fun project for sure, but not very cheap. (it is what it is, not intended as complaint )

View attachment 126195A running machine like this is in the same price range as the Quorn kit. ( it comes with the work done, and without the fun of making it. And I think the quorn looks nicer on the shelf :) )
Question: are these two comparable? If I understand it correct the green thing is a copy of older German Deckel machines, that are if useable more expensive 2nd hand.

Now I stumbled into this.
View attachment 126196 It is about two thousand British Money. 3.2 x as expensive as a quorn unfinished kit. I guess shipping for the Kit will be in the same range as shippig the white Japanese colleague.
It says it is a "nihon seimitsu Co.Ltd" EG-100. I was not able to find any internet information.

Now I wonder if anyone has a comment. I do not have any more pictures, information or whatsoever. I am going to visit the machine on Saturday. Any suggestions what to look for are welcome.

Greetings Timo
 

timo_gross

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Timo

Yes and how long is a piece of string?
Hello Norman,

yes more a general invitation to share thoughts. And the hope to catch some comment about the mentioned items in general.
I am curious if anyone has an idea if 2000 dollars for a grinder seems reasonable, or overpriced.
I was asked if I was interested yesterday and thought I might find some comment.

Is the Bonelle similar to the Quorn? It looks nice anyway.
I was hoping someone can give some hints about what a Deckel clone can not do, that a Quorn grinder can do.
Maybe someone here owns both and has certain jobs that are better with one or the other?

I did start grinding some lathe tools. Trying to grind brazed carbide cutters. I gabe this up for now. With the bench grinder is useles exercise. (my opinion). For the flat grinding machine a diamond wheel is neccesary.
Some examples what I have in mind, but it does not have to be achieved at any particular order or neccesarily at all.
  • Touching up or making lathe tools. I partially did this with weird potentially dangerous set ups on the flat grinding machine. It takes time to set up, I was thinking of making some fixturing for it at some point.
  • drill grinding, e.g. the ones that make clearance hole and counter sink the at same time. A third step for the tap hole size would be excellent.
  • grinding small drills, something between 1-3 mm
  • Maybe grinding some D-bits for engraving
  • Fixing Endmills that are mostly O.K. but have the tip damaged or a corner chipped.
  • Modification of Endmills
  • Sharpening interesting 2nd hand tools e.g. HSS dove tail cutters, Carbide Endmills
If someone has a general advise what I should look at when visiting the machine that would be nice.

Greetings Timo
 

geo

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I have the dekel clone d bit grinder only problem I have is in the first set up step for any job put the white dot in the white dot window there is no white dot there is no window. Both Robin Renzetti and Stephan Gotteswinter have good vids on the deckel clone. The adapter to grind lathe tools is ordinary good for 25mm stock I have made up adapters to suit the adapter for drill sharpening is cumbersome but it works
 

geo

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I paid about $1200 au has a diamond wheel as standard imperial and metric collets but no .125 or 3 mm collet I purchased mine to do small bits instead of forking out$40 plus for end mills so a 3 mm collet would be handy
 

goldstar31

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Hello Norman,

yes more a general invitation to share thoughts. And the hope to catch some comment about the mentioned items in general.
I am curious if anyone has an idea if 2000 dollars for a grinder seems reasonable, or overpriced.
I was asked if I was interested yesterday and thought I might find some comment.

Is the Bonelle similar to the Quorn? It looks nice anyway.
I was hoping someone can give some hints about what a Deckel clone can not do, that a Quorn grinder can do.
Maybe someone here owns both and has certain jobs that are better with one or the other?

I did start grinding some lathe tools. Trying to grind brazed carbide cutters. I gabe this up for now. With the bench grinder is useles exercise. (my opinion). For the flat grinding machine a diamond wheel is neccesary.
Some examples what I have in mind, but it does not have to be achieved at any particular order or neccesarily at all.
  • Touching up or making lathe tools. I partially did this with weird potentially dangerous set ups on the flat grinding machine. It takes time to set up, I was thinking of making some fixturing for it at some point.
  • drill grinding, e.g. the ones that make clearance hole and counter sink the at same time. A third step for the tap hole size would be excellent.
  • grinding small drills, something between 1-3 mm
  • Maybe grinding some D-bits for engraving
  • Fixing Endmills that are mostly O.K. but have the tip damaged or a corner chipped.
  • Modification of Endmills
  • Sharpening interesting 2nd hand tools e.g. HSS dove tail cutters, Carbide Endmills
If someone has a general advise what I should look at when visiting the machine that would be nice.

Greetings Timo
I must and so must replies make sweeping statemts

Tool grindomg is NOT a one page or video aqlthough it may clarify ONE aspect.
The choice alomfor suitable grinding wheels occupies many pages. Again sometimes it may be recommended to change wheels to 'rough out' and thrn do a basic angle and then 'fine hone' before puyyimg a tool to use. Developing this theme people may work their way through a selection of diamond pastes-after adopting the procedure mentioned erlier.
Moving to drill grinding, there are numerous methods and some machines will not cope at all but many can do 4 or 6 facet grinds uwing a priciple perhaps akin to grimd yhr blunt ends of milling cutters.
Again, lots of grinders will only grind a straight facet and leave the operator to 'roun d off the cornerrs by hand or indilge into 'steps adopted by ballet damcers!'

So my worn out eyes are tired and I'm mzking mistakes in ty[ing. So despite the admitted cheapness of the Bonelle- similar to the early Quorns, I guess that your present experience would be better served with an Acute system set of plans and the firm's excellent vidoes. Remember that a Quorn is a tool which a large collection of toolimg must be addedrequies time and arguably a great deal of knoeledge must be added.
norman
 

coulsea

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I paid about $1200 au has a diamond wheel as standard imperial and metric collets but no .125 or 3 mm collet I purchased mine to do small bits instead of forking out$40 plus for end mills so a 3 mm collet would be handy
I have an ER11 collet holder with a straight 16mm shank. it is handy for holding small stuff in the lathe 3 jaw chuck and i also use it in the dekel clone. i have collets up to 10 mm for the ER11 and 10 up in ER32. the ER11 can also go in the ER32 square and hex blocks. cheap ebay from china, most have a long shank but you can cut a bit off.
 

goldstar31

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hi Couldea

I note that you have a 'Deckel clome'
As I am disappointed in mine-namd others i the past have similar expriences, please tell me what the Chinese affair can do.

The decke WAS designed to sharpen engraving tools but can be pushed to sharpen lathe tools and the ends of milling cutters. Can it actually MAKE mullung cuters which was really the intention of the Quorn and go up to say 1400 rpm and regrind dies and sharpen taps----and possibly be pressed into service to grin-- on the milling machine?

There was a Kiwi. who hsad a Quorn which would do all these things

Thank you

Norman
 

pat_pending

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:mad:

i've bought a Mk3 Quorm kit to go weeoth my Mk1
Hey Norman. I have just done the same. Might be good to share construction notes when we're underway building them. Im still 'clearing the bench ' on my Nalon Vioper project but then I'll turn my attention to the Quorn.

Patrick
 

goldstar31

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Hey Norman. I have just done the same. Might be good to share construction notes when we're underway building them. Im still 'clearing the bench ' on my Nalon Vioper project but then I'll turn my attention to the Quorn.

Patrick
Best wishes on your construction. :)

As far as I can see, the Mark1 and the Mark3 possess many parts which are interchangeable. Once I 'cler the decks for action', I think think that both bsses are identical and I'm going( mI hope) use the new tool holder on the old machine-- until - well something happens.
So might I mention that I still have the 'inline boring bar to do the precise parallel 1.000" holes for thr bed bars. Mine came out of the Geo Thomas Model Engineer's Workshop Manual. I certainly commend the book to would be constructors

'Somewhere' in my glory hole, I have the drawings of an automatic gadget which will do the three different lengths of strokes used for the two azimuth rings in the tool holder.
FYI my e-mail is tramuntana(at)btinternet.com.
Incidentally, there is a new Quorn Owners web site. It's a closed site but very helpful to genuine owners

Regards


Norman Atkinson
 

timo_gross

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Tool grindomg is NOT a one page or video aqlthough it may clarify ONE aspect.
The choice alomfor suitable grinding wheels occupies many pages. Again sometimes it may be recommended to change wheels to 'rough out' and thrn do a basic angle and then 'fine hone' before puyyimg a tool to use. Developing this theme people may work their way through a selection of diamond pastes-after adopting the procedure mentioned erlier.
Hello Norman,

yes I am aware (fearing) that this grinding; it is a rabbit hole. :) Underground or coal mine possible the better analogy. I am not expecting or relying on any fast or perfect results in short time. I can flatten the steep learning curve by adding some patience and time.
"Bad workers blame the tools, skipping that excuse still often makes things easier." If I fail, I will just pretend that I never tried.... :)
As always tooling suddenly becomes a mayor factor (expense), buying a machine and then got hit by the accessories that need to be provided.
I will keep this in mind, is always worthwhile to get reminded on this. A commercial machine certainly will not automatically progamm any know how into its owner, it never does.
Industry is trying. The perfect example: Your worn out eyes are getting tired. Then the nasty auto correction, and typing aid, of your computer are messing with your perfectly fine text. The next day you think you made the mistake...

Greetings Timo
 
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David Shealey

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Similar problem like in the recent milling machine thread? Only difference I am upgrading from nothing to maybe giving it a thought.

A grinding machine for sharpening tools. I was considering this Hemingway Kits Quorn Mk3 - Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder a fun project for sure, but not very cheap. (it is what it is, not intended as complaint )

View attachment 126195A running machine like this is in the same price range as the Quorn kit. ( it comes with the work done, and without the fun of making it. And I think the quorn looks nicer on the shelf :) )
Question: are these two comparable? If I understand it correct the green thing is a copy of older German Deckel machines, that are if useable more expensive 2nd hand.

Now I stumbled into this.
View attachment 126196 It is about two thousand British Money. 3.2 x as expensive as a quorn unfinished kit. I guess shipping for the Kit will be in the same range as shippig the white Japanese colleague.
It says it is a "nihon seimitsu Co.Ltd" EG-100. I was not able to find any internet information.

Now I wonder if anyone has a comment. I do not have any more pictures, information or whatsoever. I am going to visit the machine on Saturday. Any suggestions what to look for are welcome.

Greetings Timo
I have never seen that machine! If I found it for that price, it would be in my garage! Sure would like to know mor about it, looks like a great machine.
 

Richard Carlstedt

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I think we are missing a word here. The Deckel is a very fine tool and cutter grinder. ( and as mentioned was primarily for Deckel milling machines and single point cutters- but it does others )
The Ops photo and the Quorn , are "universal" cutter grinders. The range of a universal cutter grinder in making various tooling is very broad and includes all types of special cutters, not within the Deckel scope. Deckel collets for example are narrow in range compared to 5 C or other collet types, so tool holding becomes a requirement that needs to be reviewed
So in deciding which to choose, one must look at the work in hand---or planned.
Rich
 
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Gordon

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A while back I tried to make a cutter grinder using ideas from several commercial and home made grinders. I ended up with a somewhat usable machine. The problem was that I wanted to use it primarily for sharpening the ends of end mills. Most of the end mills I use are center cutting and getting the wheel to grind exactly to center is a problem. I am not sure if the problem is the somewhat less than perfect tolerance on my home made machine or just my misunderstanding of how to do that.
 

awake

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Timo, I have zero experience, so take this for what it is worth ... but any time someone has bought a used grinder, the thing I always hear discussed at length is whether or not it came with all of the collets, accessories, attachments, or other doo-dads that turn it from an expensive door stop into a useful machine.
 

BaronJ

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Timo, I have zero experience, so take this for what it is worth ... but any time someone has bought a used grinder, the thing I always hear discussed at length is whether or not it came with all of the collets, accessories, attachments, or other doo-dads that turn it from an expensive door stop into a useful machine.
Hi Guys,

I have looked at a number of TCG's for sale ! The thing that seems to be in common with them is that in the main they have been used to only perform few or only one or two tasks and most of the accessories supplied with them from new and not utilised seem to have got lost, meaning that they are very rarely complete.

I've spent a fair amount of time making a very much modified "Brooks" TCG and only recently have got to the stage where I can actually use it to sharpen anything. However whilst it has not cost me very much money, the education and experience building it has been invaluable.
 

goldstar31

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BaronJ and I share very similar ideas about tool and cutters:). John is referring bto the homee make Brooks grinder which appeared 9jnModel Engineers Workshop issues 16 and 17 and is a sort of dimimotiveversion of the famous Clarkson and sort of shrunk to fit the model engineers workshop and then derek Brooks simplofied and chespened it to be made from a few slabs of mild steel, a sheet of felt to reduce much of the grit and it was propelled alomg with a bit of wire vand the mototive power was-man old router with a 1/4' grindstone bit and Brooks copied the excellent Quorn tool holder.
As John will afirm , Brooks did things like needle valves as he made model aero engines:)
So it was open to one's own taste and John added the Chaddock idea of a cartridge spimndle which withn the old axial bearings would run up to a staggering 14000 rpm with a full head of steam, a following winmd-qnd a little gift of a 1/6th 2880b rpom motopr kindly donated to a good friend.
And John has, like the rest of us, added our own 'niceties' tailored to our own unique 'tastes'
The cost therefore is neglible and out to replace a washing machine motor on my own Olld Quorm, I came back home traing not only a similar motor but a fabricated Stent which is a sort of \in between!
The total cost, cause it came with other goodies, was a mere £100.Mine came with collets which were merely slices of 1" round MS and drilled yo accept standard milling cutters and held with grub screws and indexed, divided and graduated with -- a sharp chisel. As you see- Hi Tech stuff and steel rubbing on steel--------AND IT WORKS!
Adding a top table and a pair of ends and - tapers, reamers, taps and whatever imagination suggests and- that- as Mr Punch says 'that's the way to do it'
So what other Baron J can add is yet to be disclosed. I look forwaard to that

Cheers

Norman
 
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