Lathe Shopping with plenty of time

[Cedge]

I'm going to look at a couple of lathes this coming week. I've been offered a Hardinge HLV-BK which is the earlier narrow bed version. Ways might need regrinding on this machine. This one is almost converted over to solid state controls but has everything to put it back original. Comes with a 3 jaw chuck, a taper attachment, Aloris QCTP and some collets. Weighs in at about 1250 pounds

I'll have to factor all that into the equation and will I know a lot more after seeing it.

The other is a running US Navy issue Monarch 10 EE 3 hp from about 1942 or 43. This one is a pretty decent looking machine, but I'll need to look it over a bit closer. Still need to find out how much tooling come with this one. Weighs in around 3500 - 4000 pounds.

Both could probably be rewound or have the motors swapped out for 220 volt single phase although I'm also considering a phase converter. Would have to have either one of them rigged into position, so weight ain't an issue. Both machines are offered for similar prices.

Without starting a lathe war, any opinions on which one would be best for home shop use? Pros, cons and things to look out for are welcome but let's keep things civil.

Steve

 

[1Kenny]

JMO, the one with the least wear and most tooling.

Kenny

 

[1Kenny]

Here is a 10EE in Las Vegas. The amount of tools with it is a biggy to me.

Kenny

 

[macona]

The hardings or EE are both great machines. The Hardinge will have a little less swing though and is lighter. I believe the ways are removable from the HLV for regrinding. Its usually over $1500 to regrind a EE plus you have to re-scrape for head alignment.

When you go to look at the machines be sure to take a good DTI and mag base to check for spindle runout. Take measurements on the inside taper and outside. Both should show negligible movement. Each of these machines came with max 30-50 millionths runout out of the factory. If there is a bit of runout all is not lost. Mark the high point with a sharpie and keep rotating the spindle. If the high spot changes position then you have bad bearings. If the spot stays in the same place then the spindle may be tweaked a bit. While doing this you probably want to be reading off the outside taper as the harding uses 5c collets directly in the spindle and you can get uneven wear from the slits in the collets. If the spindle shows a couple thou it can be reground.

This year of EE uses a motor generator setup for variable speed. I will need 3 phase power provided by a rotary phase converter. Figure about 6.5hp for the lathe. its a very reliable system and has been used for over 100 years now. The motor generator is a three phase motor directly coupled (Same shaft) with a generator and a self exciting 115v generator belt driven off that. The exciter provides 115vdc to control all the relays and contactors, provides field voltage, and excites the main generator. The motor is a 3 hp open frame motor with integral back gear unit. 115v field and 230v armature. Has incredible strength even at dead slow speeds. The EE should go from a standstill to full speed (2500 RPM) within a few seconds. And from 2500 to 0 just as fast. If it tops out at about 1100 rpm then there is something wrong with the field weakening circuit. These things are pretty easy to fix and over on PM there are a bunch of people who know a whole bunch about them.

The motor is couple to the spindle by either long matched v belts or a flat belt. This ensures there is no gear train vibration in the spindle. Also the quick change gearbox is flat belt driven in feed mode so there is no vibration feedback to the spindle. This gives the EE the best finish capability of any lathe ever made. Only in threading mode is the head gear connected to the gearbox.

The quick change box on this machine is referred to as a round dial. Has about every imperial thread you can think of. Metric threading can be done with transposing gears installed on the input shaft. The gearbox feeds the apron through the feed rod and the leadscrew. the leadscrew only turns with both the head and gearbox in threading positions. The gears in the apron are in a oil bath. There is a bijur oil pump in the sump that pumps way lube to the cross slide, ways, and cross slde leadscrew bearing. This is something that needs to be verified to be operating. Wipe off the oil off the ways and rn the carriage back and forth a few times. Fresh way lube should be dispensed. If not there could be trouble and you will really need to look for bed wear. The bed is hardened but without lube it will wear. You might take a 2" mic with you and measure from the bottom of the ways to the top of the saddle. This might give and indication of wear. The saddle is held down to the ways with four roller bearings on eccentrics. When I got my machine the front left bearing would not even touch the bottom of the ways from the wear in the saddle. I figured it was about .030 worn from where it should have been.

Most EE were made with taper attachments. It will probably need new bearings in it if it has coolant installed. Check the traveling surfaces for rust. The switch for the coolant pump is installed is a little twist switch behind the headstock.

I believe the HLV uses a reeves drive system similar to the varispeed in a bridgeport. Still a very smooth lathe. Also the HLV has electric variable speed feed for non threading applications.

Either machine you will love to run. The EE weighs in closer to 3000 to 3250. Think of the EE as a HLV on steroids. Has a bit more swing (12.5" even though they call it a 10" lathe), more mass, and quicker speed changes. Also the spindle is d1-3 camlock and not the standard hardinge nose so you can go from forward to reverse without messing with the chuck.

The EE is plug reversible where at high speed you can throw it into reverse and it will brake to a stop and the go into reverse. All within about 4 seconds from 2500 rpm. At spindle speeds below 200 rpm it will instantly go from forward to reverse and vice-versa. Needless to say this is great in threading!

I am sure there is more I am leaving out...

 

[DICKEYBIRD]

Yabut give us some DETAILS about those lathes Mr. macona.

Just kidding of course! Your descriptions make me want to go throw my little Taiwanese lathe in the dumpster and mortgage my house for a nice Monarch. :'(

Must be a close second to good sex to run one of those...and probably cheaper in the long run. ;D

 

[BobWarfield]

Heck of a step up from that 7x14, eh Cedge?

Personally, I love the look of the Monarch. They are just gorgeous.

My impression is that there's a lot more tooling available in the aftermarket for the Hardinge. The Hardinge also made its way to CNC over time, if that's of any interest.

Either one makes for an outstanding lathe once you get it restored.

Cheers,

BW

 

[Hal]

Cedge

If your looking for more information on the Monarch 10EE go to the Practical Machinist forum and scroll down to the Monarch section.

You might check with the members on that forum, maybe there is someone close to you and you can check out their machine and get some pointers.

The Monarch 10EE's have a cult like following. Just a word of warning Don't run one unless your willing to buy it or you'll be ruined for life.

There is also a Hardinge forum there that could answer any questions for you

If you get a chance post some pictures.

Hal: Love my 10EE

 

[Cedge]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I've been reading up on both lathes and will continue to do so. Macona... plenty of food for thought in your reponse and I've not rules the EE out of things yet. I'm leaning more toward the smaller Hardinge, mostly due to the less complex mechanics and electronics. I did learn that the Navy version of the EE lathe seems to be a much desired piece of iron, but I'll have to get a bit more educated in what it would take to convert the machine to residential power. I'm reading that it can be done easily and then I read that it can't be done at all. No one seems to know anything about the cost associated, even if it can actually be done. The internet is fast becoming famous for providing torrents of technically correct but basically useless information.... something first perfected by Microsoft tech support.

Bob
I've had a lot of fun with my 7 x14 in the past 3 years and will probably keep it around since I've got it to where it's doing all I've asked of it. It's been money well and wisely spent. It's just becoming apparent that as I go along, I'll want both a more accurate and capable machine. These two lathes just happened to pop up at the beginning of what could be a long and patient search to get what I want at a price I'm willing to pay.

Steve

 

[Hal]

cedge

I wouldn't worry about the power requirement for a machine as long as you have 220V available.

You can always get or make a roto phase or a VFD to convert single phase to 3 phase.

Macona gave a good run down for the 10EEs.

When you look at the 10EE write down the ser#, it's located on the flat, between the V way and the flat way on the right end of the lathe bed. It should also be on the I.D. tag.

With that # give MONARCH a call and they can tell you what drive system, Voltage and any "as built info" and who ordered it.

Hal

 

[BobWarfield]

In that kind of price range, or sometimes a little less than really pristine Monarchs and Hardinges, I also put the Mori Seikis up there. People swear by the accuracies of Moris. There were several Korean clones built under license that are also very good lathes; Hwacheon is one.

What I like about these lathes is they're a little larger than the Hardinge/Monarch lathes while retaining similar accuracy. A home shop can't afford too many lathes, so getting a "big" lathe makes me think Mori.

Happy Hunting,

BW

 

[gr8life]

Here is a 10EE in Las Vegas. The amount of tools with it is a biggy to me.

Kenny

Not sure if I am responding in the proper place. Does that fellow in NLV still have that 10EE for sale?

 

[1Kenny]

gr,

PM sent'

Kenny

 

[zeusrekning]

Steve I'm just coming across this post. I used a Hardinge HLV at the first shop I worked so I have a biased love for these machines. But after reading macona's post I'm really interested in seeing a 10EE. I'm not sure what this old POS monarch we have here is. I can't find a model number on it possibly a B.S. model You could always buy both. I have to agree with Kenny though, least wear most tooling.

Give us an update when you've seen them.
Tim

 

[Swede]

Steve, I have an HLV-B which I rebuilt and would be happy to answer any questions about it.

The way did in fact need to be reground. It separates from the bed with a series of SHCS which are accessible from below. Total cost of the regrind was $250 circa 1994. That dovetailed way is one big slab of tool steel, and since the regrind, I have seen ZERO wear, I'm guessing because I take care of it and keep it clean!

The Hardinge spindle taper nose is great, and I run my lathe reversed all the time with no issues. One of its strong points is the threading system which is just phenominally easy to use. The half-nut stays engaged for the whole operation, and the thread lever is thrown right or left to move the carriage via the leadscrew. It has a "kick-out" mechanism, meaning you can thread right up to a massive shoulder, and the tool tip will automatically stop before it crashes! It's a bit scary to see the tool tracking quickly towards a big shoulder, but I've never NOT had it work correctly.

You'll love either machine. Good luck!

 

[zeusrekning]

I agree with Swede, the threading is awesome.

 

[Cedge]

Swede
What it the foot print on the HLV-B, and how hard is it to move around if need arises? I'm clearly seeing the benefits to the Hardinge/Monarch cam lock spindles. How is the motor and speed control configured? The one I'm looking at has all the parts to put the original drive back in and to add a VFD for controlling the motor speed. I'm assuming I'd still have a reverse and back gear if I do that.... am I correct?

The other option is to finish the variable speed mod he's begun on the electrical section. Control electronics do not shake me after 20 some odd years of troubleshooting, fixing, designing and replacing AC control circuits...... I can read the schematics and get where I'm going. The money is looking Ok at somewhere around $2000 or less with some tools, a taper attachment and a leaver style 5C closer.

Tim
I'll be happy to show you the Monarch, since I've pretty much decided to let it pass. Too heavy for me to move alone if needed, can't see it run under power, pricey replacement parts and most likely mucho mas capability than a guy like me will ever need for what I do. A dream machine for most, but a bit of overkill here. It's within a mile or so of my home, but they are only open weekdays. At least if you got it running, I could maybe come over to play at your place...LOL It's really not a bad looking machine overall.

It's like I told the HLV owner today. It's a large step up that I'm anticipating making and I want to do it right the first time, based on my space and needs. I'll admit I'm vacillating over the decision, right now, as I weigh out the various factors influencing the choice. I've even got the cash on my hip, which ain't making it any easier.

Steve

 

[Swede]

Steve, I missed your post yesterday, and now I have to go to work, but I'll get some measurements and other info for you this evening or tomorrow. Good luck with this major purchase!