Hi speed steel inserts in UK

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lensman57

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Hi,

Just as a matter of interest, has anyone seen HSS inserts in the UK? These seem to have a strong following in the US as they combine the best qualities of the carbide inserts without their weakness, chipping, gigh speed and high feed rate requirement and so on?

A.G
 

Tin Falcon

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HMM I know this is not answering your question the only supplier I know about is A.W. Warner in Latrobe PA Mike makes great tools.
Tin
 

gus

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HMM I know this is not answering your question the only supplier I know about is A.W. Warner in Latrobe PA Mike makes great tools.
Tin
Hi Tin Falcon,

Your two cents worth,plse

I am looking at the Warner boring bar with HSS inserts.Looking at this to machine the Firefly I C crankcase. Or should I go for the Carbide Inserts for my mnin lathe?

The cheapy boring bar bought in China is rubbing and not boring but now I made a user-friendly QCTP ,I will give a last chance.
 

goldstar31

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I avoid 'carbide' like the plague. Consequently, I make up tool bits from things like broken centre drills and fit them into either bars of mild or silver steel. Again, there is plenty of information published on how to make boring bars from silver steel/drill rod to cover ALL my drilling/boring/turning needs. If you recall Gus, that I downloaded a heap of stuff on the subject and recommended that you obtain the two George Thomas books which - amongst other things- go into the topic at great length.

Meantime- Happy New Year

Norm
 

Jasonb

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Gus try the carbide inserts specifically for aluminium they are much more "pointed" so should not rub. Having said that it may just be your lathe and I used standard CCMT inserts to do all teh boring on my Firefly as I could not be bothered to change tips.
 

Omnimill

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How about trying a Tangential tool holder? They're great for using up old broken centre drills etc.
 

lensman57

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Hi,

The reason that I was interested in the HSS inserts is that they are supposedly, have a hardness factor of over 64 HRC but do not chip or crack like carbide, even a hardened and tempered piece of silver steel is about 54 HRC and drill bits are even lower. I have now bought a Myford ML7 and it is coming in to line gradually, it has a max rpm of about 870 so it inherently suited to HSS tooling of which I have plenty. The inserts seem to be able to machine very hard materials such as 304 steel without the problem of rubbing and heat build up that carbide does.

Regards,

A.G
 

gus

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I avoid 'carbide' like the plague. Consequently, I make up tool bits from things like broken centre drills and fit them into either bars of mild or silver steel. Again, there is plenty of information published on how to make boring bars from silver steel/drill rod to cover ALL my drilling/boring/turning needs. If you recall Gus, that I downloaded a heap of stuff on the subject and recommended that you obtain the two George Thomas books which - amongst other things- go into the topic at great length.

Meantime- Happy New Year

Norm
I am about to make my own boring tool using silver steel from the scrap bin.
Have to get a LPG burner to heat tool to Dark Chilly Red in a dog hole furnance at night to get color right.
Have you tried using SAE grade 5 or 8 to make turning tools? Your two cents worth please?
 

gus

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Gus try the carbide inserts specifically for aluminium they are much more "pointed" so should not rub. Having said that it may just be your lathe and I used standard CCMT inserts to do all teh boring on my Firefly as I could not be bothered to change tips.
Hi Jason,

I am impressed with the finishing you got. Where can I get the CCMT inserts and tool bar. I am looking at a Warner Boring Bar.Plan to redo Firefly and get all the critical fits done right. Slide Valve Steam Engines are very forgiving.
The Firefly is not.
 

lensman57

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I am about to make my own boring tool using silver steel from the scrap bin.
Have to get a LPG burner to heat tool to Dark Chilly Red in a dog hole furnance at night to get color right.
Have you tried using SAE grade 5 or 8 to make turning tools? Your two cents worth please?
Hi Gus,

Hope you don't mind me saying that the right temp for the silver steel is when the colour is like cooked carrots not dark chili or cherry or etc, it just won't be hot enough. I do mine in my garage and just partially block the light, don't want to suffocate. You only really need to harden the first couple of inches not the whole tool. If you have a drill press hold the tool in the chuck taking care not to burn the machine, once hot enough just lower it in to a can of water or oil ( depending on the steel ) and then very gently rotate the spindle during the immersion, this way you minimise the chance of distortion due to sudden cooling of one side over the other, then you can temper it by leaving it in a domestic oven at 220 Degree C for about an hour and then leave to cool naturally. I prefer this to trying to heating to straw colour as it is even heating and no mess. Hone it on a diamond stone and you are ready to go.

Sorry if you knew all this already.

Regards,

A.G
 

Tin Falcon

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Gus and lensman57 :

the tool steel from A.W. Warner is top grade USA made it has excellent wear characteristics. Warner tools are not cheap but are great tools. Made by a family.
IMHO HSS is the preferred cutting tool for hobby lathes. carbide does not really cut. carbide likes speed and is great for multi horsepower production machines.
hobby machines just do not have the power to make full use of carbide.
and yess carbide is more prone to chipping and does not like intermittent cuts.

I have made small boring bars or one from drill rod AKA silver steel. I quench in used motor oil 4-1 Quaker State 10w-30 to 1 part marvel mystery oil . and no tempering.
One can also grind a BB from a square blank.
Like these


Tin
 

gus

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Hi AG

Thanks for the tip with silver steel.
My experience was heat treatment down using the shopfloor electric furnace with temperature control.Hardening
temperature came from ASSAB Steel Supplier. Did not pay much attention to the color. Did have some good experience with
Oil Quench Steel. There are three grades of Quenching Oil ----Fast----Medium-----Slow. Made some stamping tools.
Factory shut n gone and Gus is back to temperature reading by "eye ball" as they say in Kentucky.
 

gus

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Hi Tin Falcon,
Thanks for the info. I am running the lathe at 600rpm which seems to work for jobs up to 2" OD. Was too lazy to move vee belt to next groove.No wonder the Carbide tools I tried using did not cut well and finishing not great with mild steel.With HSS bits and Tapmatic Oil applied I get good finishing.
Will monkey see .monkey do.
This a great forum with polite and helpful members.
 

Tin Falcon

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IIRC the speed for carbide is up to 7 times that of HSS
Tin
 

lensman57

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IIRC the speed for carbide is up to 7 times that of HSS
Tin
Hi Tin F,

My work horse is my little Taig lathe fitted with a Sherline Dc motor and controller. When I use carbide, mostly indexed tips from Sandvik and Iscar, I have learned not to be frightened of turning the speed control up all the way and engage the auto feed at max speed with my right hand bearing against the wheel. Provided that the tool, material and the cut do not stress the little lathe the results on Aluminium, Brass and EN1a steel are amazing. Hot curly chips and mostly shiny finish. There are times particularly when accuracy is concerned that I prefer to use HSS, a lot slower but much more controllable on a little lathe like Taig. For fine finish though nothing touches a well ground, round tip HSS tool. As for my Myford I doubt if any carbide tooling will do it justice as it just does not have the speed. Much better with an HSS tool, after all it is an old lady of 1949 vintage,

Regards,

A.G
 

titex

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Hello lensman 57,
You can obtain HSS inserts from ARNO Werkzeuge. They are a German company and their UK branch is located at Sugnal business centre Staffs, just make sure that you are sitting down when you get the price!!!! I use them quite a lot during heavy interrupted cuts in Inconel 718, although they are equally at home with any type of metal both ferrous and non ferrous. They are superb inserts with a price tag to match. Here is an example of my last costing, "box of 10 SCFT 090408 FN Tialn coated" a lovely £218 They are available in most ISO forms both coated and uncoated.
Best wishes,
Titex.
 

Omnimill

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I'm not sure how we got on to silver steel earlier but why would you use it when HSS is easily available?
 

lensman57

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Hello lensman 57,
You can obtain HSS inserts from ARNO Werkzeuge. They are a German company and their UK branch is located at Sugnal business centre Staffs, just make sure that you are sitting down when you get the price!!!! I use them quite a lot during heavy interrupted cuts in Inconel 718, although they are equally at home with any type of metal both ferrous and non ferrous. They are superb inserts with a price tag to match. Here is an example of my last costing, "box of 10 SCFT 090408 FN Tialn coated" a lovely £218 They are available in most ISO forms both coated and uncoated.
Best wishes,
Titex.
Hi Titex,

Many thanks for your reply, That is probably why hardly anyone uses them in the hobby sector of the UK. BTW they are not alone in charging such prices, a while back I bought a Sumitomo carbide boring bar, 6 mm dia, for about £38.00 including a tip, the tip was a weird looking affair. Then I ordered two more tips from a recommended supplier, the price £48.00 each plus VAT and postage ang packing in short £120.00. So I think your £218.00 for 10pieces is a bargain in comparison.

Regards,

A.G
 

goldstar31

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I think that it is the relationship between the ability to sharpen both hss and carbon steels within the small envelope of the home workshop and on the same tooling.
Now we are wandering off into the realms of 'the factory' and the ability or inability to afford/acquire carbides to - make little toy engines.
My head is simply spinning- which is more than I can say for the engines.
I got to the daft point where I realised that the quoted £218 bought me two tool and cutter grinders-- and a drawer full of hss tooling and left enough to buy the grinding wheels.


I wonder if others might agree. After all, one impeccable source stated that the average wealth of someone in the UK was only twice a box of inserts.

The Sunday Times didn't quite put it that way- but take my point.

Regards

Norman
 

abby

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Omnimill
The heat treatment of HSS is beyond most model engineering workshops , it requires very high temperatures and salt baths of nasty chemicals.
So it is supplied in it's hardened state , it cannot be milled or turned , the only way to fashion a tool is by grinding , for making accurate form_tools this is not easy without a T&C grinder.
Silver steel and gauge plate are supplied in the unhardened condition , for special tool shapes such as D-bits , taper reamers , radius cutters etc , the tool can be shaped accurately using the lathe or milling machine or even by filing.
It is possible to make form relieved cutters for gear cutting and all manner of milling cutters as well as simple lathe tools.
After shaping silver steel tools are easily hardened and tempered prior to sharpening and if correctly designed will cut as well as HSS , although not for as long.
Care must be taken to keep them from over heating and loosing their temper so slower speeds and lighter cuts !
 
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