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Julian

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Hi Guys,

Well on in the conversion of my X1 to cnc. Made new leadscrews, nuts, anti-backlash, motor brackets andthe control box complete with power supply. Will post pics when its done and also when I can find the camera under all the mess.

I am running it on mach3 at the moment but got a small problem. The motors double or treble their speed every time the mouse is moved. Anybody got any idea what the cause is before I start ripping it apart to find a fault?

Thanks

Julian.
 
??

Any chance of any more info ?

Is this jogging, running a program or what?

John S.
 
Hi,

This happens when running a program. I will check if it is while jogging tomorrow.

Have just joined Mach forum tonight.


julian.
 
Two things to check.
Try another keyboard and in Mach go to Operator [ top menu bar ] > then Check Config and see if you have any pins conflicting.

John S.
 
I'm sticking with an old workshop computer to drive my router, uses a PS2 mouse.
I do seem to recall something on the mach forum tho, regarding USB rodent/keyboard conflicts.
Worth consideration?
Are you using USB kbd and/or rodent?

Cheers,
Lin
 


Checked and it also does it in jog. Checked with EMC2 on linux and that is not affected so must be software rather than hardware fault.


Not got usb mouse or keybd. Clean installation of mach and winxp and no connection to internet. Can find no conflicts in fact have turned off all inputs and outputs except for the motors. Got no limit or home switches yet.


Julian
 
Hi All,

I have a low tollerance of things not working so have moved away from mach3 for now. May go back later but may not.
WHY?....................Cos I have installed a free program called 'CNCMaster'. It was writen specifically for model engineers. It includes several wizards for wheels, flywheels, gears, splines etc. It runs gcode and all the others too.

My motors are running better, smoother and quieter than under Mach3. The pins it uses did not match those listed on my breakout board but that was soon changed to suit. If you're looking for a free efferctive cnc program for your mill or router table check this out.

http://www.colinusher.info/Software/index.html

. It can be installed without a mill and tried to show its capabilities.

I have no connection with the software whatsoever except for a wish thaty I had written it!!

Julian
 
Just a couple of update for anyone interested.

I have worked the mill on CNCMaster and it works very very well.

I have cured the problem with Mach3. I ran through all the instructions for optimising XP found on the Mach3 site. This includes pushing XP into standard mode, clearing all starups etc. The full list is at:-

http://www.machsupport.com/downloads.php Bottom of Page.

Appears to work just fine now.

Julian


 
Hi any chance of some pictures and info on how you Made new leadscrews, nuts, anti-backlash. I am in the middle of doing one and the big let down is the standard nuts etc

Peter

P10204ff34.JPG


P1020440.JPG
 
Just a general question, Do any of the programs run on a closed loop system, where there is feedback as to where the axes are?
Regards,
Gerald
 
That depends on how you define 'closed loop' In the strict sense, only very high end commercial systems really do what you are expecting.

Some will say that a servo motor is closed loop, but it is only a loop with the controller. The program still issues move commands and expects the servo to make the right move.

In my view this is one of the most common holy wars of the home shop CNC game. Its usually brought up by new guys, mostly ex-software guys, with no practical machine experience as a worry about using stepper motors. The fact is there are tens of thousands of CNC machines with stepper motors making reliable parts all day long. A stepper motor correctly sized, and operated within its limits will NEVER miss a step. Sure, if you try to take to big a cut, or run it to fast, it will loose steps, or maybe just break the tool. My suggestion is 'dont so that'

Mach has an optional board, offered by a guy named Ron Rodgers, that uses encodes to provide a feedback to a mach plugin. You set a tolerance value into the code, if the hardware senses the actual position is out by that value it pulls an Estop on the system. This does work well and is a close, and inexpensive, approximation of real closed loop.
 
Thanks Ron,
I am an Retired CNC Programmer/Operator, and all the equipment I ever worked with had feedback, but most were "very high end commercial systems ". I was used to pushing the machines fairly hard. Looking at the setup on most of the home conversions I realize that you would never be able to push the systems the way we did in industry. The board offered by Ron Rodgers sounds like a good idea.
Regards,
Gerald
 
Ron's Rogers board is more of a stop gap measure.
As Ron Ginger says if it detects an error it pulls the plug but all that does is ruin the job as it stops out of position.
A well designed stepper driven machine should not loose steps.

There is more written about this by armchair machinist and purists than people who actually use machines for a living.
Remember most of the Appollo program was machined on Series 1 Bridgeports on stepper driven 1/2 step systems but they still got by NASA certification.

John_S.

.
 
John Stevenson said:
Ron's Rogers board is more of a stop gap measure.
As Ron Ginger says if it detects an error it pulls the plug but all that does is ruin the job as it stops out of position.
A well designed stepper driven machine should not loose steps.

There is more written about this by armchair machinist and purists than people who actually use machines for a living.
Remember most of the Appollo program was machined on Series 1 Bridgeports on stepper driven 1/2 step systems but they still got by NASA certification.

John_S.
Hi John_S
As I understand it "You set a tolerance value into the code, if the hardware senses the actual position is out by that value it pulls an Estop on the system"
If the Tolerance Value is out the job would be ruined at that point, and I would rather know it, than have the machine continue running.
Regards,
Gerald

.
 
Hi.

If the motor and controller is powerful enough there should be no need for feedback. Feedback would only be needed if the motors were struggling for some reason either not enough power or the machine too stiff or obstructions against a drive or feeding too fast etc.... I am happy that my motors are going where they are told at the moment.

One obstruction I have found that makes the system struggle is swarf. I have just made a name placque from brass but do not yet have a system of removing the very fine swarf. It is very fine but jams in any pockets you cut so either causes missed steps or snaps the bit. I am about to rig some sort of vacuum pipe to the mill to extract everything as it comes off the cutter.

Julian.
 
Aha, the sacred Servo/Stepper/Open Loop/Closed Loop Jihad has made it here!

I have both. There are good arguments for both. In the end, I have a hard time not going for the servos if I can afford it. Just as we can say NASA used stepper-based systems back in the day so therefore steppers are good, we can also say there are almost no stepper-based VMC's made today, so therefore servos are better. In fact, the servos way outperform steppers in most cases, they just cost more, and you may not need (or be able to take advantage of) that extra performance.

We can argue that we don't care about that extra performance, and we may not, but let's not kid ourselves that there isn't even the potential for the performance or that it won't matter to anyone.

I agree with most of what kf2qd says, but I don't agree on the cost point. A servo-based system is more expensive, but it isn't $1000 per axis!

For example, my IH Mill runs homeshopcnc servo motors at a cost of $235 (I got the fancier ones, but they have one with encoder for $199 if you're pinching pennies) for 850 oz in motors, which are pretty stout. Equivalent stepper motor might be $130 from the same place, so you save circa $69, the cost of the encoder. Here are my servos:

P1010920.JPG


Add a Gecko servo drive 320 at $114, which is the same price as a Gecko 201 stepper drive, so no incremental cost there.

The last servo specific piece I use is a board from CNC4PC called the "Master Control Board". It manages the servo fault signals from the Geckodrive and costs $48. You wouldn't really need one with a stepper system, although it could be used to manage your E-stop and limit switches. The nice thing it does for servo users is it manages servo fault signals so that a servo fault looks like an E-stop. What does that mean?

A servo fault happens when the encoder indicates that the motor hasn't been keeping up with the commands issued by Mach 3. On a Gecko 320, the fault is triggered if the encoder falls more than 128 steps behind the commanded position. For my IH mill, each step is 0.7 of a tenth, so an error of 128 means that axis is off by about 9 thousandths. Note that this will differ based on the leadscrew pitch, encoder counts, and belt drive ratios for your machine, but it gives you an idea.

In practice what happens is, I run the CNC program, and if the servos don't fault, I know I was within 9 thousands, and probably a lot better, of what the program intended. Equally as important if not more so, the program may have gotten off by nearly 9 thousandths at some point, but with a servo system, it can "catch back up", so the error is localized and doesn't carry through all subsequent moves. If I was running a stepper system, I might be off by a lot more, and the errors become cumulative. Once I'm off, the system never catches back up again. In fact, if I start a whole new part without rezeroing, the error lives on for the new part too!

With the servo fault, I can see by where the machine stopped what it was doing when the error added up to too much. It's pretty easy to turn down the feedrate (potentially just for that part of the program and not the whole program too), restart the program, and try again. If the same happens for the stepper, I have to start measuring the part to find where the error begins manually. I may not even be able to measure the beginnings, because they may have been machined off. In fact, with the stepper, I have no idea if there error is due to lost steps or some other source of error in the machine. This makes tuning up your programs a lot harder with a stepper system than a servo system.

It would be ideal if the controller could actually log where the errors occurred, how far off things got, and even let me set in software the servo fault limit (maybe I want to fault if its off by more than a thou, or perhaps I'd like to be able to change that tolerance at different places in the program). It's be even better if the position signal made the control dynamically slow down or otherwise take steps to "do better". I can't really do that with the rig I describe. I can do a little better with the Rogers board, but it isn't clear to me how to make that board work without even more encoders. It's more of an add on to a stepper system. It's probably not possible at this stage in Mach 3 development to do what I describe at all, but what I do get seems pretty good to me.

In practice, I suspect steppers lose steps a lot more often than most stepper users think. Many people complain that the Gecko 320 is "too sensitive" to servo fault. Given that the fault doesn't happen until they are off a few thou at least and maybe more, those same people are obviously used to running stepper systems that silently get off by that much and keep going.

It can get a lot worse too. Servo faults can be caused because the program runs awry and the cutter is plowing into vises, clamps, tables, and whatever else gets in the way. The stepper will keep chugging through it even after the cutter breaks and there is a smoking ruin. It isn't going to take too much of that sort of thing before the servo will fault and things stop.

So to conclude this rather long essay, do I insist only on servos? No, not at all. I have two machines set up for steppers and one for servos. I'm happy with each. I'm just saying that if I can afford the added expense of servos, I think they're better in every way. I don't see a down side to them other than the cost. That cost is quantifiable. On my mill, it has cost me an extra $210 to buy 3 servos instead of 3 stepper motors, and another $48 for the Master Control Board. I think the extra $258 was well worth it on this mill. Your mileage may vary!

Cheers,

BW
 
Thanks Bob,
Yours and kf2qd's explanations is what I was looking for, I have only run commercial CNC equipment with Servos, and want to explore all options.
Regards,
Gerald
 
First a couple of clarifications.
Yes the Bridgeport's did have massive steppers on them, got loads lying about here and they were only 850 to 1200 oz in on a type 42 motor.
Modern type 34 can piss all over these so it's not the motors. the Bridgy controller / driver unit was absolute crap. This is the reason why there are so many good mills out there, they never wore out because they spent more time broken down, crash one into something and it burnt the output transistors out - full stop.

They were only full stepping and could hold 0,001" but even in those days 1 thou to NASA was still the same thou it is today.

Bob put some good points about the difference between steppers and servo's and I have no beef with his explanations, they are 100%.

One point that has been missed though and lets face it this IS a hobby forum is the skills needed to built both systems.
Steppers are cheap and simple easy to mount usually on existing hardware as they develop maximum torque at low revs.
Servo's develop max torque at high revs meaning you have to gear an axis down to get any sort of power out of it.

Quoting max feed rates isn't everything in CNC as any G00 moves are not cutting and only costing you.

The main difference for a beginner is the complexity of the servo system. There are not many good servo drivers out there for one and all rely on encoder feedback, to a beginner this often also translates to noise.
Read the CAD_CAM_DRO list, Gecko list and CNC Zone and most of the beginners problems are caused by electrical noise.

There is also a missing link at the moment in that the larger servo motors require analogue inputs but affordable controllers use step and direction, Gecko drives can't power the big servo's like the BOSS 2's and Mach can't power the larger Fanuc, Baldor and Siemens servo's drives.
Rutex tried and failed, the Pixie convertor card whist seeming to work was withdrawn so there is a gap.

CNC like any new venture is a steep learning curve and the sooner it flattens out the sooner you actually start learning and enjoying. Doing a simple stepper system to cut your teeth on and then progress if far better than throwing yourself into the top end, never getting a grasp of it and then feeling let down.

Incidentally my big mill, a Beaver, the same size as a BOSS 2 and built with the same stepper motors as the BOSS 1's at 850 ox in direct onto 0.2" pitch ballscrews has been running all day today drilling circular hole patterns with a 2.5mm drill.
These holes are virtually touching and any errors show up immediately, add to this the machine has graduated dials on as it shared some components with it's manual stablemate so when it goes home it's easily checked. Todays run was 11,208 holes and it's parked back on 0,0,0 two drill used, tomorrow it will be doing the same but different job and on 3.12mm holes.

JS.
 
No question about the complexity of servos being higher. And the noise issue is an EXCELLENT point! Noise is touchy to diagnose and annoying as heck because it can be intermittent.

FWIW, I built my first CNC on steppers. Maybe for a first machine steppers are the way to go so you can't start having some fun before you've had to master too much complexity.

Cheers,

BW
 
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