Small lathe question

[tmuir]

Hopefully by February next year my workshop will be finished and ready for me to use so I really need to decide which lathe to buy.
Budget and availability really limits me to more the hobby style lathes.
There are two I've been looking at
the smaller AL-30
http://www.hareandforbes.com.au/sample_2/Catalogues/Metalworking/09.html
or the bigger AL-60
http://www.hareandforbes.com.au/sample_2/Catalogues/Metalworking/10.html

I would prefer the smaller one as it will give me more room in my workshop to put other equipment but there is one thing that has put me off it so far.
It uses 8mm tool bits not 12mm (half inch) tools.
The place where I want to buy it from does not sell knurling tools to fit 8mm tool holders and I want the ability to do knurling. Can anyone confirm for me whether it is possible to buy a knurling tool off the shelf that will fit 8mm tool holders?
Thanks

 

[greenie]

Yes, from the exact same place that your looking at now, go to page 35 and you'll find the knurling tool holders, part # L 079. OK, its shank is 5/8"high, now what's it made of and how easy is it to trim it to fit the toolpost of the AL 60.
If you go for the smaller AL30, you will regret it and as for the mill, go for an X3, it's all you'll need for quite a while.
What is wrong with looking outside the square and making a slight mod to make things fit, think along that line in all the tooling, that way you make sure it fits your setup. Don't be afraid of making a few mods either, it's a lot cheaper than getting zoned in, on specific high cost tooling.
There are quite a few sites that show you how to make your own tooling as well, this reduces costs even more and improves your skills as a machinist, best of both worlds, eh.
There are even sites dedicated to the AL30 lathe that can show you how to do lots of mods to improve that lathe. Go and join these groups as there is a lot of information that is available which can used.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/9x20Lathe/?yguid=97172132
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x10minilathe/?yguid=97172132

Then there are lots of skilled people on this site, that can show you how to do it as well.

regards greenie

 

[Bogstandard]

Tmuir,
This is just a suggestion, seeing as you are considering the more expensive AL-60.
Have you considered the lathe on the same page as the AL-30, that is the AL50GB.
If you look at the specs, it is a lot higher than the AL-30, plus there is a lot of extras included in the price whereas with the other two, these would need to be purchased, and so adding to the cost. The cost, including a purpose made stand is still less than the AL-60. The tooling is also 12mm, allowing maybe a better choice of more rigid tooling.
The choice of machines is your and yours alone, the members on here can only give you guidelines that you may like to follow.
I don't know what the heavy metal market is like in your part of the world, but by shopping around on the web for an hour, you can usually find the best price for a particular machine but under a different badge, and usually a lot of money can be saved, allowing you to buy extra tooling that otherwise you could not afford. Sometimes $100's if a machine is being replaced by a more modern version or coming to the end of production.


John

 

[tmuir]

Thanks for the links Greenie.
Unfortunately the X3 is more than double my budget for a mill (The wife doesn't even know I have a budget for a mill).
I wanted to get the 'off the shelf tooling' for the most common stuff as my machining ability is pretty low at the moment but the plan is later on to make some of my tools as I get more confident.

The site I gave is the cheapest supplier for me within 3000km, only really 2 or 3 places in Western Australia you can buy decent lathes from so not much competition and I'm staying away from second hand ones as I don't know enough about lathes to ensure I'm not buying a lemon.

The AL-50GB leads to another question then as its top speed is only 1800rpm compared to the AL-30's top speed of 2500rpm. Now this would give me a top speed well below the speed recommended for brass of around 10mm, would this give me a serious drop in finish with a max speed of 1800rpm?
Thanks

 

[Bogstandard]

Hi Tmuir,
I think honestly you are looking at things maybe as a theoretical issue rather than practical.
I maybe use the top four speed range of my lathe maybe one or twice a year. Normally I have no problems getting a finish using my lower four direct gears, the highest is 685 rpm.
I don't know whether this is due to experience or what, but I have never run into any finish problems at all. But that is only my views, someone else may have different thoughts.

John

 

[Tin Falcon]

Tmuir:
The first lathe to buy is always a big question. My first lathe was A grizzly Import similar to the AL30. The deciding factor for me at the time was price it was all I could afford and still buy other stuff I felt like I needed for the shop like a band saw and a sander.
here are some questions to ask yourself
what do you plan to do with the lathe what size parts.
what features do you want /need / plan to use.
A qc gearbox makes threading a whole lot easier.
power feed capability also make things easier and allows for smother finishes.
Look and see what modifications people have done to the machines you are looking to buy . This will point out the possible shortcomings of a given machine that you may need to overcome.
Another biggie is what accessories / tooling comes with the lathe. One of the ways they keep the little lathes cheap is selling with no tooling.
The large lathes many times have a face plate , 4 jaw chuck, live center, steady rest and follow rest included in the package. the 7 x 10/12 don't. so add the cost of buying all this tooling in cluded in the larger one to the price of the little one then compare that price to the larger lathe.
A quick estimate the above mentioned Items will likely add up to a couple hundred bucks in AU dollars. And you still do not have a QC gear box or power feed. So do your homework.
Make sure you add cost of need tooling in buying a lathe. A drill chuck and drills for example . there is nothing more frustrating than putting out a $1000 for a new lathe and not being able to make a part because of lack of tooling
LMS has lots of info available to help in lathe and tooling selection of a hobby machines there catalog is ever expanding to include added accessories and machines.
http://littlemachineshop.com/Reference/reference.php

Can anyone confirm for me whether it is possible to buy a knurling tool off the shelf that will fit 8mm tool holders?

Yes
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1730&category=1

And if you want a go ant making your own here are the plans
http://littlemachineshop.com/Projects/knurler.php
hope this helps
Hope I did not overwhelm you with info here.
Tin

 

[tmuir]

Thanks again everyone.
Bogstandard you are right about me being thinking theoretical rather than practical.
As theoretical is about all I really have to go on. Its been some 18 years since I've used a lathe not counting my few minor dabblings on my watch makers lathe.
I am now leaning more to the AL-50GB but I think my final decision will be made once my workshop is complete and I have moved all my existing equipment into it and I can see actually how much floor space I will have left for a lathe.
Tin Falcon Facts for the link.
I can see me printing out some of their charts and laminating them.

 

[Bogstandard]

Tmuir,
A very wise decision, do not rush into anything. Getting your workshop right is like choosing a wife, get it wrong and you will hate it, get it right and it will be forever. But the workshop will never, ever cost as much.

John

 

[Cedge]

Tony
If you're looking for a forum that caters to mini lathe owners with a bit more focused flavor, the 7x12 minilathe forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7x12minilathe/ is less about politics and more about machine discussion. The 7x10 group has become a place of near anarchy. You can sift out a few nuggets between flame wars and political discussions, but the 7x10 group has become known for being rather contentious.

It won't be long before someone takes you to task for deciding on the chinese iron. Like John said, it's a personal choice that one bases on budget, space, needs and availability. In a perfect world we'd all have Bridgeports and 10,000 square feet of spare space, but pragmatic reality dictates our choices. There is room for us poor folk in the hobby too...LOL

One item I'd highly recommend from the start is a quick change tool post. The darned things make life so much easier. You can upgrade these little machines in any number of ways and there are plenty of places to find how it's done. Having the mill will allow you to do quite a lot of improvements as you gain skills. Some of us (me) learned to machine by "hot rodding" our equipment to let it do more than it could when we bought it. There is a learning curve, but it is not so steep that one can't negotiate it with a bit of patience and perseverance.


Steve

 

[JohnS]

Steve
Absolutely right Steve a QCTP was one of my first mods for my mini lathe followed quickly by a cam-lock tailstock. Details at http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/CamLock.html . Both of these are real timesavers.
JohnS

 

[Tin Falcon]

I agree a QC tool holder save lots of time and aggravation. I need to do the cam lock mod on mine as well. Is a pain with out it.
Tin

 

[shred]

I did quick-n-dirty variation of the cam-lock tailstock on my little Atlas-- drilled and tapped a bit of 1" rod the same as the tailstock hold down bolt, then cross-drilled and tapped that new nut to hold a short length of 1/4" rod for a handle. You need to trial-fit the new nut so as to get the handle in the right spot (note the mistake in the pic), but it works great.

 

[tmuir]

I'd already decided as money came available a QCTP was going to be acquired and I have already squirreled plans away on making a cam lock for the tail stock as I could see undoing the bolt on the tailstock becoming tiresome pretty quick.
Only 7 more days until my walls and roof get delivered for my workshop with erection planned to be finished by the 21st of December, unfortunately that doesn't leave me any time to get a concrete floor poured before Christmas so I'm guessing I will be looking at mid January at the earliest before I get my floor down. I guess I should be happy that it is progressing even if not as fast as I would like.

 

[bob ward]

There is an AL-60 on ebay at the moment, might be too far away for you though.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/hafco-metalm...ryZ36345QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[mklotz]

I did quick-n-dirty variation of the cam-lock tailstock on my little Atlas-- drilled and tapped a bit of 1" rod the same as the tailstock hold down bolt, then cross-drilled and tapped that new nut to hold a short length of 1/4" rod for a handle. You need to trial-fit the new nut so as to get the handle in the right spot (note the mistake in the pic), but it works great.

I've done a number of specialty nuts such as Shred shows on his tailstock.

My (patently obvious, really) hint is to put a couple flats on a small portion of the newly fabricated nut. Then, once it's in place, you can tighten it down with a wrench to the tightness you expect will be needed in use. After doing that mark the position of the required handle on the blank. Loosen with wrench, carry to mill and drill and tap for handle on said mark. That way you'll be assured that the handle is in the right position when the final installation is made.

 

[tmuir]

There is an AL-60 on ebay at the moment, might be too far away for you though.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/hafco-metalm...ryZ36345QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks but thats about 3500km from me.
Courier costs would make it close to new price but I obviously wouldn't have a warranty then.

 

[Graybeard]

Sounds like you're going through the same challenge that I am. I started out looking at a Smithy 3-in-1, then the Shopmaster Bridgemaster 3-in-1 (all because of space limitations), and now I'm zeroing in on the Sieg 7x20 lathe and X3 mill. From what I've gathered elsewhere the Sieg lathe may be a hair-bit-better built although it doesn't have the qc gearbox. It's a trade-off. The X3 mill has no competition from what I can see although it gets knocked by some as being under-powered. There is a Super X3, but it isn't available in the U.S.. I don't know about Australia. You may be lucky there.

I too started looking at the smaller mini-lathes because of space, but when I looked at some of the projects that I planned on doing - they were just too small. Ergo, the 7x20's came into focus. Then the X3...my wife is just going to have to learn to live with my taking more space in the garage for a work area. A man can only give up so much!

Anyhow, good luck!

Cliff.

 

[tmuir]

Just had the walls and roof put up on my workshop, its still over a month away before I will be able to use it but I can now guage how much room I will have and it looks like I will have more spave than I thought so I will probably be able to get the bigger one now.