Replace your balls before they wear out.

[Julian]

Hi All.

I have a chinese lathe from Seig. They make all the others in the various guises around the world. Apart from several design faults they are generally good machines. To keep the price down they fit standard bearings in the head not taper. This builds a little play and instability into the head and means the plastic gears smash easier as they are constantly moving in and out of alignment. The bearings on mine started squealing under the stress of turning. Grease did not make enough improvement so I decided to change the bearings for tapers. I only live about two miles from Arc Euro Trade so am a regular visitor there. For less than twenty quid I bought two bearings and a plastic gear wheel to cut up to make a new spacer. The bearings were Timkin rather than the usual Nacho so I have by far the better ones. On the Arc Euro web site he has a very detailed set of instructions including photos for the whole process. I printed them out and followed to the letter. Both sets of my gear wheels were smashed so I changed them as well. Over two days I spent about five hours doing this.
The change in the machine is fantastic. The movement is very smooth and does not jerk at low speeds. The lathe will now turn very smoothly at 20rpm and will now turn to the full 3000rpm and then a bit more. All the stress in the lathe has gone and it is now a pleasure to use it making turning easier and the finish a 100% better.
If you have one of these lathes and have not changed to taper bearings DO IT NOW....you will not regret it. For about twenty pounds you are effectively buying a new lathe. Spend a little more and replace the gears aswell to make sure but DO NOT change plastic for metal. They are plastic to protect the lathe and designed to smash under extreme load. Bearings and gears are only thirty pounds plus the postage. I walked in and collected. The guys there are very knowledgeable and easy to talk to. I have nothing to do with the company except being a very satisfied customer. Check out their website and see the range they do...it's not just machines.

www.arceurotrade.co.uk/

Regards

Julian.

 

[John]

Hi Julian

I have a Sieg C3 lathe like yours. Quite new and so far the bearings seem fine. The only problems I have had is the micro-switch on the chuck safety cover jamming and the lathe not starting. A bit of adjustment sorted that out.

Am a bit worried about the plastic main gears breaking under load and will probably buy a new set to have on hand in case they are unobtainable in the future.

I downloaded the excellent tutorial you gave a link to on how to upgrade the bearings, but it seems you need your lathe intact to machine new spacers just at the time it is in pieces! I guess that is when you need friends with a workshop.

Thanks for the post.

John

 

[Julian]

Hi John,

My lathe is just over a year old. The plastic gears are worth keeping in stock as they normally go when you least expect them. My last one that went while I was machining was cutting the concave section of an ali flywheel with very little strain on the machine. Both gears had smashed but not collapsed when I rebuilt the bearings. The main part that needs machining is the very thin plastic shim against the rev counter wheel. When you buy the bearings buy a spare set of gears AND an extra large gear. Cut this up and machine it before the rebuild. The size given in the article is the correct size so you can rebuild using this. Without replacing the tacho hall-effect sensor you can reassemble the head without the rear plastic spacer. Use the lathe gently to machine the step in the rear edge. It needs very little step. You could probably file a bevel onto it as it is only to stop it catching the bearing cage. Once reassembled you can use the lathe to machine the outer plastic sleeve to realign the forward/reverse gears. I had the option when I bought the lathe of a works upgrade on the bearings for £80 but decided not. The difference in the lathe is like I said buying a new machine. Having spoken to Katan at Arc it appears the crap bearings originally fitted in china are a major reason for the gears smashing as they do not run true under load. Before my motor would cut out at the slightest catch by the tool. Now it carries on longer before it stops. I was considering getting rid of the lathe but now will keep it.

Regards

Julian.

 

[John]

Thanks Julian

Have taken all that on board.

I bought my lathe through a local tool store that mainly deals with wood working gear and they didn't seem to know too much about metal lathes. I think they had got a few of these lathe in as a trial to see how they sold, as I got it for a good price. Unfortunately they don't carry any spares but will 'back-order' for you if you want to wait.

I am tempted to buy the bearing kit from Arc but freight to Australia would be a killer. Do you happen to know the Timken part numbers for the bearings as I am sure the local bearing suppliers would carry them ?

I will try to order the gears etc directly from Sieg in China. They have a website at http://www.siegind.com/index.htm and an online store, but it says it has been closed since June, yet I note people are still ordering stuff through their messages page.

Regards

John

 

[Julian]

Hi John,

To put it bluntly but truthfully Seig are c**p. Their after sales are rubbish. You have to get parts from a seig parts stockist. While the machines are in warranty they supply the faulty parts but charge the labour and carriage. They need to learn all about customer service and warranties but they are not interested.

I am sorry but the only parts supplier I know is Arc here in UK ( he supplies parts to all other stockists in the country). Email them and ask the costs of the parts and the carriage to Oz. Also ask if he knows who the Oz parts supplier is. If he does not know I am sure he can find out from Seig as he is in constant touch with them.

Can't find the box the Timken bearings came in. I have spent the day repairing my other lathe. 300kg of lathe was stuck in the middle of my workshop as the only access is at the rear of the head. Have done it now so will try to find tomorrow. There are two makes of bearing that fit one is Timken the other is some chinese copy. Timken is best but they are rare. It took them several weeks to pull in enough stock to supply 50 sets to Arc.

Regards

Julian.

 

[Cedge]

Guys...
Littlemachineshop.com has just about every part you could ask for the Sieg. Keep in mind that Siig does not dictate the standards of fit and finsih.... the importer does that. They do what they are paid to do and no more or less. If you buy an imported Sieg lathe because its the cheapest price you could find, there is a reason it looks and runs badly. The "same model" from Enco or MicroMark was specified to have a bit more attention paid to it and it shows when you unpack them. Yes... these are "kit" machines, but the level of upfit required varies quite widely among vendors.

If you're expectations are that these machines will cut like a Bridgeport, then you're fishing off the wrong end of the pier. They are what they are... a cheap entry point for hobbyists on a small budget. You want a bit better fit and finish, you'll pay a few bucks more for the added cost the importer paid to get it. Shopping price alone is going to assure you buy the lowest bidder's product, along with his judgment of what level of quality you need. If you want to drive a Cadillac, you don't go to a Kia dealership.

You can always get a nicer small lathe of the same size from Germany... for a nicer small fortune.

Steve

 

[rake60]

When I was 18 years old I was frustrated by the limits of the machine I was to run that day. I started to complain about it to an old floor foreman. His reply was:
"That's the problem with this place, they hire operators instead of MACHINISTS!"

That comment more or less.... Well, it wasn't well taken! LOL
BUT, it changed my thoughts forever about the capabilities of any machine tools. The ability of a machine is not in the crate it comes in. That ability is in the users willingness to understand and improve on what comes in that crate.

Please don't misunderstand my intent!
My point is, even the most inexpensive machine can be turned into a very capable tool if you are willing to learn it's weak points and make the necessary improvements to eliminate them.

That topic just might become a category here.

Rick

 

[Julian]

Most if not all the upgrades are done by the importers as the Seig 'technicians' are not capable. They did some factory upgrades on the bearings a while ago-they fitted taper bearings like I have just done. All the machines were immediately returned as they were so badly fitted that they were unusable. I have seen the photos and they were not pretty. The bearings cost me £14 for the pair. The number of lathes Seig produce their costs would be considerably less. The fitting process should be similar to the usual bearings but they do not do it. They need to learn quickly as this is their industrial revolution.
I agree that they are only entry level BUT they have to work to a reasonable standard. All the importers strip the lathes and rebuild them. In my mind that makes the original lathe just a pile of castings. If you look at the price of a Seig factory unit and the equivalent Chester the Chester is over twice the price because they have put right all the original design faults. Many of the design faults are Seig's lack of care and severe lack of fore-thought. They have not grasped the concept of build it properly at the factory.

Cadillacs and Kia's are both built properly at the factories. They come out functioning correctly and doing the job they are meant to do to satisfy their respective markets. (Personally I prefer the Kia but thats another story).

Don't get me wrong my Seig lathe is a very good bit of kit....NOW. I bought a factory unit because I begrudge paying twice the money for the improved lathe from another importer when the cost of the improvements is less than 10% of what I paid. Stripping the lathe to do the improvements means I now know what is what and how to fix it when it inevitably breaks again. I can't afford a Bridgeport but could also not do it justice. I own a Denford Viceroy aswell as the Seig. Both have their place in the shop hierarchy. The Seig now comes a close second.

Julian.

 

[Julian]

A category for improvements to lathes, mills etc would be an excellent idea. There are plenty out there for both new machines and upgrading/repairing older machines that no longer have suppliers of parts.

Julian.

 

[Cedge]

Julian...
Don't read me wrong here. I'm not disagreeing completely with your assessments. Depending on the importer, there are some versions of the Sieg machines that would be stretching it to properly function as a decent boat anchor.

Case in point... I paid a bit more to Micromark for a few added features and quick dependable customer support. I got what I paid for... a lathe and a mill that with a bit of polishing of the gibs and a few screws tightened up from shipment that were actually fairly usable right out of the crate. MM does not do their own upgrading, they pay to have it done by Seig. Believe me I know that smelly red grease pretty well. They specify a higher level of fit and finish than...say HF, whose machines I've closely compared to my own. I was quite happy, after doing so, that I spent a few more dollars. The differences are readily obvious.

When I read where some poor schmo just bought his new lathe at a traveling tool tent show, I already know he has a problem that is going to be with him a while. I've corresponded with several who eventually got things corrected and a few who never managed to do so. Ya gets whacha pays for and low ball sellers are not known for giving away added features.. and in some cases, not even a usable product.

My little 7 x 14 has been modified to death, as I learned to cut and fit metals. You'd love running the little sod these days.

I've extended the cross slide travel by just over 2 inches of diameter.
It now runs 5 inch chucks which are as large as you'll want on one of these small machines.
I've knocked the nearly all the backlash out of the cross slide by drilling one small hole
It has both a power feed and a hand wheel on the lead screw for easy and for accuracy
The compound was given the J.Early mod to decrease chatter
The QCTP is a must for anyone wanting to enjoy a lathe.
The combination indexer and handwheel on the spindle gets plenty of use these days.
Adding DRO's changed the whole experience and is a mod I'd recommend to anyone.

MY next mod is probably going to be steel change gears and possibly a redesign of the cross slide to add T slots. I'm also researching a method for mechanically increasing torque with little reduction in RPM.

I used modifying the lathe and the mill as a vehicle for learning. None of the projects were actually needed and none of them cost all that much. All of them did increase the fun and functionality of the machines. They taught me to hold tolerances, to drill straight holes, not to take to big of a bite, just how much I could climb cut, and all kinds of tricks for doing setups and material holding. The end product was two highly usable machines, for very little money, a much better understanding of proper shop practice and a new found love for a hobby I never thought I'd get so hooked on.

I agree, an area for exchanging tips and tricks for these little beasts is not a bad idea. I've been tracking such places for a quite while now. Having one close by seems like a good thing.

We're rowing the same boat here...LOL

Steve

 

[Julian]

Hi

The only mods so far done to my Seig are ones necessary to keep it running and to give a better finish. Got an idea to just put a motor on the leadscrew to give a better feed for turning. At the moment I don't cut threads but that may change eventually. Looking at driving the gearwheel end rather than adapting the other end. Not decided stepper or ordinary motor yet. It depends on whether I can build a cheap decent stepper controller. Got plans for one using a PIC chip.

Just repaired my 40 year old Denford Viceroy. Had to take the complete head unit off. Had to strip out most of the innards to remove it. Lifted it onto the bench and found it weights about the same as the complete Seig!!!!!! The fork that moves the back gears had worn out it's copper bottons so was not completely engaging the gear. Made some new out of some Phos Bronze rod. Made a rivit the rounded it over. Filed it til it fitted then adjusted the fork with a large hammer til it worked. Sorted and back together. Should be good for another forty years. Because it was designed for schools it was too low so I lifted it (300kg) onto a plinth made of 6X2 timber.....better height for a bloke of 6'3". Ably assisted by Firebird.

Some of the previous comments apply now to this lathe. I know how it works, what the inside looks like and what a beast it is to work on.


Julian

 

[John]

Hi Julian

While on Sieg lathes, have you any experience with using their verticle slide attachment for a little light milling?

This is the device I'm talking about. Maybe it is rubbish but I can't justify the cost of a mill at the moment.

Regards

John

 

[Cedge]

John
I have one of those and it's really quite stoutly made. I haven't used it all that much since I also have a mill, but it functioned satisfactorily even if the work envelope is limited by the available travel of the cross slide. Definitely a viable option where one has only a lathe to work with.

Steve

 

[Julian]

Hi John

Sorry for the delay

Bearings are numbered on the Timken box as

30206M 9\KM1 55

Have spoken to Arc. He will supply you or better yet tell you where to go in oz for spares...just email him. I spoke to him yesterday.


I did not buy the mill attachment as Katan at Arc pointed out it is not very good. The capacity is very small and use is limited. He said keep the £60 and put it towards a mill...good advice in my book.

Have you seen the latest Model Engineer Workshop yet? Its got an article on these Seig lathes and a follow-up next month.


Julian.

 

[Cedge]

Julian
I'd have to agree with your assessment. Given the small work envelope the tool provides, I'd probably recommend saving the money to put towards something more usable.... like a small mill. Sound advice from where I'm sitting.

Steve

 

[gilessim]

I have a slightly larger mill attachment like that,that came with my lathe,I found that it is very useful, but now I have a mill so I don't need it anymore but it's still handy for some jobs, saying that, I also have a Taig lathe with a milling attachment that I use often for very small stuff, I find it less frightening than the mill for really tiny things!. I would say that if you can't afford a mill just yet, get the attachment, you can do all sorts with it and it's quite quick to set up and when you do get a mill, in essence you'll have 2 mills and a lathe!....Giles