Graying Hobbies

[Briank]

My shop is in my garage. I often have the door open and welcome anyone who shows the slightest interest, but they never come. Recently, we had two very young visitors from Ecuador. I imagined a non-stop educational tour with the boy, but it was his sister who insistently peppered me with questions, and has talked about her experience ever since. Our world is changing.

Brian

 

[sjuddavis]

Dieing......really??

I might offer an alternate view to many of the posts in this thread. To me this is one of the best times to be in this hobby there has ever been. And there is an "underground" of younger folk (I can say "younger" I'm 56), just not in the traditional sense some of us "seasoned" folk concieve. A few observations:

Additive machining - read 3d printing....a amazing part of our hobby (even the Homeshop Machinist Cover has a printed engine shroud on it). Brought about by a largely younger generation of "rep rappers" that have combined the tinkering of the past with the computer of today.

CNC availability. Same story. Ever have to cut a formula based curve by hand?. CNC modified equipment ain't necessarily cheap (though closer to the homeshop budget than it ever was), but I can't remember any piece of equipment at the time I bought it as being "cheap".

Internet. I remember the first model engine book I bought, by ET Westbury, a lot of money at the time for a young kid, but was it great! Today I am constantly amazed at what this site and others have available free for the taking. The only problem this brings is what to choose......what a great problem.

My point is this, there aren't 10,000 kids machining 1880's threshing tractor models, (I aplogize to those fans...) there aren't 10,000 kids machining 1/3 scale offenhausers (my passion) but there are younger folk making, building, maching "stuff". We owe them the resposibility to upgrade to their world and much as we bemoan they have no appreciation for ours. I plan on giving my grandson a Elmer's Engine for his birthday, if I'm fortunate enough to have some interest, maybe we can build the next one together.

For what it's worth.

 

[Lew Hartswick]

OK Here goes: CNC is just the beginning of the "slippery slope" to end of a lot
of this hobby machining.. When the main effort toward producing a mechanical part
is the "programming" of a computer to do the work, how long will it be till it's all done
by the computer with voice input.
...lew...

 

[Tin Falcon]

Kids are machining parts for real robots . not r2d2 or c3po but cnc machines and things that will do a task.
and I think any kid given the oportunity would have an rc car and want to make better parts for it.
Tin

 

[geoff p]

I wholeheartedly agree with Rondunn, that the perceived cost of getting-started must put-off a lot of people. Though there are a number of members on here who can boast of having fantastic machinery, there are few articles about what can be done on "primitive" equipment.
A long time ago, I was given a Stuart 10V casting set for Xmas and had it running on my birthday, Feb 7th. My only machine was a round-bed Drummond lathe. My next engine was an own-design horizontal made from milk-bottle tops - thousands of them melted-down and cast. Cost? a bit of gas for the cooker.

When I started teaching, Design and Technology, my headteacher told me "Geoff, I love your technology, but don't throw-out the baby with the bathwater." But even while I was there, (1987 to 1994) the school had to stop using our foundry and our forge - "Health-and-safety" y' know.

As far as CNC is concerned - I love it! With failing eyesight I find it much less frustrating to modify my G-code until I get the desired result, than to scrap a job (usually home-made castings) because I misread the mic. or very-nears.

Geoff

 

[BronxFigs]

Very interesting discussions, especially the perspectives coming from both sides of the Atlantic.

The hobby is changing, and changing quickly. I can't keep up with all the machining options available. No doubt about it, how things are designed, and how they are fabricated will morph right before our eyes, and we will have to make a conscious choice between the old ways, and the new ways of making things. Maybe both.

As an example: I just recently met a fine gent. and we became instant friends. He's half my age. He grew up using computers, I barely can turn on my lap-top. He has generously shared his extensive file collections with me, and, I now can, just by pressing a button, download enough drawings for engines.... flamers, steam, compressed-air, gas, nitro, etc. ... to last me several lifetimes. I would've taken me years to collect these drawings the "old" way. He also sent me links for the engine-building sites in Europe....so, more plans. This exchange of information was science fiction, when I was younger. Today, it's nothing...it's as simple as making a phone call. Amazing.

Before you start playing a harp, put everything you design on paper, and share it. Someone, somewhere, someday, will love it as much as you did, and will preserve your legacy. Metal lasts, and, you don't. However....with 3D printers.... who knows.



Frank

 

[Wagon173]

Well motmaulk, I think that's kind of an unfair view of it. Naturally tech schools are in decline. One we're coming out of a recession and two we're technologically evolving. I'm sure my grandparents were hearing the same thing about kids always on their bikes and under their hoods when there was a perfectly healthy logging and fishing industry. Like logging and fishing, I think that trades in most forms will continue for generations to come, but as technology and society evolve, there will be less and less need for mechanical thinking. I can tell you though, as one of the younger members, that my grandfather is the one who turned me on to metal working and my dad got me into woodworking and construction. We would spend countless hours in the shop. Infact to this day when I have a snag in the machine shop I head strait to the phone and hit the grandpa button. I'm only 27 and have been turning wrenches on diesel engines for 8 years. I can honestly say I've never paid a mechanic to fix my car other than to put new rubber on the wheels cause I hate doing it. I've been fixing/building motorcycles and gocarts since I was old enough to ride one. And I'm building a functional 2-man submarine for fun. All because my grandpa and dad made me interested. Not that this is a stab at you. If it sounds that way, I'm sorry. If you have grandkids or kids that absolutely aren't interested, that's cool. Support them in their techno hobbies. But if you have kids or grandkids that aren't interested simply because they just don't know enough about it to be interested in it or they don't know what kind of real world aplications this hobby carries with it, then it's on you to show them. That's my two cents worth.

 

[Tin Falcon]

The beauty of this being a hobby is there is no pressure to purchase new technology . we can do things as we see fit .
Tin

 

[aarggh]

Sharpers are obsolete but I have one and enjoy using it.

Tin

I am just dying for the day I can get my hands on a shaper, I have no real practical use for one, but I would dearly love one nevertheless! Out of all the milling and machining equipment, available (even CNC) there's something about shapers that I find especially fascinating and amazingly enjoyable to watch. Unfortunately in OZ they are few and far between!

cheers, Ian

 

[OrangeAlpine]

Dying? Really? I think there is more home machine shop activity now than in any time in my lifetime (70 years). But it is a "mature" persons hobby. Takes space, time, money - things a young man does not have.

I pined for a shop for many years, made no real progress until I was in my 50's. I'd guess that is pretty average. I have three sons. The two oldest have zero interest in any of the "traditional" hands on mechanical stuff. The youngest, twenty eight, does. I'm sure he will someday have his own shop - hope most of it is mine.

One out of three isn't bad, the hobby will live on.

Bill

 

[Mitchg07261995]

Im in the model airplane hobby as well, and even though I am only 17 going on 18 years old. I do see the graying part of the hobby of model aircraft. It used to be that people only used gas or nitro model engines and now that most of those people are getting older and dont fly any more, more and more people are going to electric flight. Those electrics bug me, i like the smell of the nitro burning the constant danger of loosing a body part. With electrics there is little to know risk, its simpler yes because no set ups are needed to get the motors to work and people do not really build there planes any more, they just buy them out of the box rtf (ready to fly) no work needed to be done. You dont learn as much by doing this and loose a great aspect of model aircrafts where you actually learn how ic engines work, what they like and need and how to maintain them, or how to build a flying model.

 

[Septic]

It's my belief that the lack of interest shown nowadays is directly due to the influx of cheaper and more reliable vehicles, domestic appliances, computers, plant and machinery over the last few decades, combined with a massive reduction in replacement costs and modular design incorporated in almost everything we use.

Those of us who were children in the sixties and seventies were used to seeing people performing their own maintenance and repairs on cars, motorcycles, domestic appliances and anything else you can imagine in driveways and garages wherever we went due to the user-serviceability, ease of repair, easy access to second hand spares and inherent necessity for regular attention that came hand in hand with any mechanical item of the era. So we saw "dirty hands" as a part of life.

At the age of 15 I was quite able to strip and rebuild a heavyweight 50s-60s motorcycle engine over the weekend with nothing more than a handful of spanners, a tube of Hermetite, a few quid in spares and a flat-head screwdriver, but I wouldn't dream of tackling the same job, in the same timescale on a modern version without a properly equipped workshop and a well stocked bank account, so I'm not at all surprised at the apparent lack of enthusiasm, or experience exhibited by youngsters nowadays.

Most kids today wouldn't give a beautifully built scale mill engine on a pretty wooden base more than a few seconds interest, but use a simple, single cylinder diesel to power something like a car, tank, or even a crane and those same bright, young things will queue up to "have a go" at operating it.. And engaging them like that is the only way I can think of to get them off their Playstations and into the workshop.

 

[Sshire]

Building small engines requires patience, attention to detail, time and money.
These are things that many younger people do not have but gain as they get older. With the requirements of a perhaps a growing family, work (sometimes more than one job), paying bills while trying to put money aside for educating children, rent or mortgage payments, those requirents for engine building are in short supply. As we get older and children become more self-sufficient, things begin to settle down a bit.
If one has always had an interest (whether hands-on or just curiosity) in how things work or, comes across small engines by accident, as I did, the pieces are in place.
Even with an "inexpensive" mill and lathe (and I so love the posts which state that good, old USA or UK, iron can be gotten for a song. I've looked. Unless you are extremely lucky, they either require extensive rebuilding or are quite expensive), the admission price is not cheap. Walk into your shop and add up the cost of it all. Frightening.
Younger people do not have the resources to buy all that is needed, nor do they have the time to work.
I have lectured at camera clubs and the majority of the members are "greying."
My brother's hobby is bowl turning and I've seen the guys and ladies in his club.
"Greying"
My two cents

 

[enfieldbullet]

as a younger member i guess i can chip in as well.

i'm not average in any way so i never thought of what i like as 'normal'. i am a restless person who seeks knowledge in anything. i have been into botany, gardening, woodworking, blademaking, jewelry, computers, machining and of course, engines (diesel first, then carburated ones)

i have a hobby that i feel is pretty much dead : horology. at least it 'should' be. people use digital watches now. and mechanical watches are actually worst than some digitals out there. however, people still love them and are willing to pay big bucks for a rolex or a patek phillipe.

i see our mechanical hobby as something similar. not so many people are willing to get their hands on building engines, but any engineer worth his salt will gladly go to your shop on invitation and appreciate as much as you do the finished product. some will even propose paying you for one.

the masters of the art may become fewer and fewer but as long as the art is still appreciated it will live on. appreciation usually comes with age.

i know all along i have heard people say 'why would you do that? just buy one'. that's the way of thinking of my generation. we never saw anyone do anything. milk comes from the box and cars from the factory. people don't even consider that you would be able to make a car.

however, i must point out the 'maker' community is growing fast. see websites like 'instructables', there are thousands of like minded people floating around. adam savage comes to mind. as well as jeri ellsworth(huge fan of her work. this lady used to build race cars)

i don't think we should worry much.

i know it is good to feel appreciated and i think this is what this thread is about. that could be adressed with raising awareness about this hobby.

the question that was raised about young people not caring about engines unless they're making something move is definitely valid.

 

[Tin Falcon]

I thought about taking up horology but I do not have the time for it.
Tin
PS sorry could not resist !!!

 

[Hopper]

It's my belief that the lack of interest shown nowadays is directly due to the influx of cheaper and more reliable vehicles, domestic appliances, computers, plant and machinery over the last few decades, combined with a massive reduction in replacement costs and modular design incorporated in almost everything we use.

Those of us who were children in the sixties and seventies were used to seeing people performing their own maintenance and repairs on cars, motorcycles, domestic appliances and anything else you can imagine in driveways and garages wherever we went due to the user-serviceability, ease of repair, easy access to second hand spares and inherent necessity for regular attention that came hand in hand with any mechanical item of the era. So we saw "dirty hands" as a part of life.

At the age of 15 I was quite able to strip and rebuild a heavyweight 50s-60s motorcycle engine over the weekend with nothing more than a handful of spanners, a tube of Hermetite, a few quid in spares and a flat-head screwdriver, but I wouldn't dream of tackling the same job, in the same timescale on a modern version without a properly equipped workshop and a well stocked bank account, so I'm not at all surprised at the apparent lack of enthusiasm, or experience exhibited by youngsters nowadays.

Most kids today wouldn't give a beautifully built scale mill engine on a pretty wooden base more than a few seconds interest, but use a simple, single cylinder diesel to power something like a car, tank, or even a crane and those same bright, young things will queue up to "have a go" at operating it.. And engaging them like that is the only way I can think of to get them off their Playstations and into the workshop.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Motorbikes is another greying hobby. Go to a vintage/classic bike rally or even a new Harley rally and it is greybeards everywhere. Like you, we grew up in the days of Brit bikes and by 15 knew, out of necessity, how to to rebuild a top end over the weekend, grinding the valves in with paste, rubbing the head on the concrete floor to get it flat and annealing the old head gasket so no expenditure was required. Heck, my old man even showed my how to put piston rings in the vice and peen them out with a ball peen hammer to give them a bit more "spring" instead of buying new rings. He grew up in the depression with even more unreliable old bikes for daily transport and no money for parts.

Kids today dont seem as interested in bikes, and if they do, the bike are so reliable they never have to work on them. Plus motorbikes today are too expensive for teenagers. We used to buy old Brit bangers for $10 a pop in the early 70s. These days, the older Japanese bikes have either disappeared completely or are still commanding good prices, and Brit bikes are the realm of wealthy collectors, so there is no cheap alternative.

Interesting though to note the laments that kids are more interested in "technology", meaning computers, than engineering. Back in the day, lathes and motorbikes were the technology. We all wanted the latest double overhead cam engine if we could get it, just the way today's kids want the latest super duper computer. And we built short wave radios from parts scavenged from the dump so we could listen to people from overseas. Not much different from being on an internet forum really.

I always have to laugh at this though:
Thought it was hilarious in the 70s, now I realise I are one...
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo[/ame]

The punch line at the very end is a cracker too.

 

[aarggh]

I personally think a large difference between us and the technology of the day, and kids and the current technology being computers, is that our technology required and enabled you to do or achieve things. Thus building motor skills in doing physical work, social skills in meaningful networking with others to seek advice or ideas, increased knowledge and a sense of achievement, and lastly and most importantly, a tangible "something" at the end of the process that you touch, feel or smell. 60 plus hours a week on Facebook for a teenage girl, or similar amounts of time on World of Warcraft for a boy, are not only unproductive, but IMHO also lead to a growing lack of social skills, general apathy and avoidance of doing anything requiring more work than moving the mouse, and worse things, such as lethargy and depression from ultimately largely useless acts, that promote anti-social behavior in the case of the way many teenagers use Facebook for example, as well as many other factors.

I think without a turnaround in promoting educational pursuits like engineering, etc, etc, we'll be seeing an ever increasing number of kids on anti-depressants and ADHD medications at levels many would have thought impossible.

Another thing that WAS different when I grew up to now, is we had a couple of things called "personal responsibility" and "consequences". We learnt through doing, and generally knew the limits of what we could get away with, and that helped define what we did and who we became, and the interests that we held. Not to mention the fact that a lot of what we did, was born out of the fact that we didn't have money as kids! Now the kids in my 10yo's grade regularly bring $20 notes in for the canteen! When I was in late teens you were either in school or working, unemployment wasn't a career choice. Now of course teenagers now have "a gap year or two" after finishing high school, so I don't see any of this as "we all ultimately become our parents", which is true to an extent, but the argument of every generation is the same I don't believe holds water. Not when the level of aimless and meaningless distraction is so pervasive and all powerful, and there's no shortage of lack of accountability, while every kid knows theirs rights!

cheers, Ian

 

[Hopper]

LOL, I remember my grandpa saying about the same thing in the 70s, about our motorbikes, long hair, denim jeans ( "bloody navvy's uniform") smoking cigarettes, girlfriends with hotpants "halfway up their bloody bumcheeks" , peace protests, lying around listening to Deep Purple records and so forth.

Then I remember saying the same thing about my kid and his mates in the 1980s when video games first came out.

I think, though, that half the problem today is parents. They don't let kids run around the district on their own like we used to. Not many ride their bicycles or walk to school any more, whereas for us it was the norm. Parents are terrified of 'stranger danger' etc and are happy to have kids at home glued to a computer screen. (Instead of rummaging through the mixture of broken glass, jagged sheetmetal and rotting household waste at the rubbish dump like we used to, before making go-karts out old prams and riding them down the steepest hill around, right across the main road at the bottom. That is how we learned our engineering!)

It seems that engineering, particularly in manufacturing, has all moved to cheap third world countries and is going to stay there, or move to the next cheap place. And with it the interest in becoming engineers or tradesmen. I know the main reason I went into the trade was so I could learn the skills to build and repair motorbikes, which I had been mucking around with from the age of 12. I suppose kids these days want to learn how to fix/use/program the computers that have taken the place of such traditional boys' pastimes as bikes and go-karts and model boats etc.

 

[Chriske]

Guys, no one lives forever, and we all get old. Get your creations on paper. I'll bet that there are guys on this forum that will take your sketches, dimensions, parts representations, etc, and clean them up in a computer and give you back readable, understandable, drawings. Do it. Please. Tick-Tock!

Frank

Splendid idea ...!

If there are some sketches out there just scan/send them to me, I'll make some decent drawings of them.
I hope some other guys on this forum are willing to help doing the same...?
And no worries guys...! I absolutely will not take any credit for these drawings in any way...!

Chris

 

[ConductorX]

I have two daughters. I have taught them both how to weld, change a flat tire, change their own oil, I have always had old cars around and encouraged them to help me tinker with them. They just don't have any interest.

My granddaugther will be 3 in October. I have bought her a log building toy and a jar full of plastic nuts and bolts that she can assemble, by shape, size and color. This past weekend I was working on my wife's car. I had some 1/4-20 screws, washers and nuts on the table. She asked what I was doing and I explained that cars are put together with nuts and bolts. I demostrated how they work just like the toys in the jar. In a few minutes she put together all the screws with a washer and nut. It is just taking the time to show and demonstrate how things work. I plan to encourage her but there is no promise that she will love mechanics or music like her mother. Or perhaps something else entirely.

I exposed my kids to everything, computers, model rockets, music, sports, mechanics, welding, wood working and they didn't stick to any of it. In fact they seem to be still searching.

For a short time I had an "apprentice" a young guy that wanted to learn about VWs. His desire was only to go as fast as possible with the loudest possible stereo system. I keep hoping to find another person with the passion, in the mean time I keep looking and hoping.

"G"