Marv Klotz's Utilities

[mklotz]

Sparky,

I have no problem with what you propose and, as always, I encourage you to make the attempt.

What I envision is something that includes the logic of each program, but has it organized into a very simple menu structure so that you can see everything that's available (for the less-than-computer-savvy folks). I'm a big fan of "text in, text out" programs for doing simple things and would propose to keep that same spirit.

I guess I don't quite understand what you're getting at here. The multi-function programs that need menus - DRILL is an example - already have them. Even the complete computer illiterate should be able to look at:

-------------------

D find Drill designation given hole size
S find hole Size given drill designation
T find Tapdrill for any tap and dot
F find tapdrill for thread-Forming tap
X step drilling calculations
H display this Help/Menu
M display this Help/Menu
Q Quit (Esc also)
(D,S,T,F,X,H,M,Q) ?

---------------------

and realize that he needs to press the appropriate letter to execute the associated function.

The single-function programs require no function menu and generally provide instructions about how to proceed - TRIANGLE is representative.

---------------

SOLUTION OF PLANE TRIANGLES

Number the sides of your triangle 1-3 and answer the questions to follow.
Input whatever data you know; press return if not known.
You need three data items (at least one side) to solve a triangle.

side 1 [0] ?

------------------

Additionally, many of the programs written by me are accompanied by a text file that discusses the program and its use. (Of course, there's nothing I, or you for that matter, can do about cretins who refuse to RTFM.)

Frankly, I don't think the programs need porting. What I think is needed, perhaps, is a meta-utility that a computer illiterate can use to download and unzip the file and install it on his system. It should also provide a portal for accessing and using the programs. This would be specific to an operating system but with one version for each of XP, Vista, you'd have 90% of users covered.

 

[sparky961]

I think we're talking about the same thing here as far as what you're calling a "meta-utility".

I'm not sure how many people who would be willing to take on machining and engine building as a hobby wouldn't be able to figure out a simple command-line program, but from reading a few of the related threads, it seems to have been an issue in the past.

-Sparky

 

[mklotz]

I'm not sure how many people who would be willing to take on machining and engine building as a hobby wouldn't be able to figure out a simple command-line program, but from reading a few of the related threads, it seems to have been an issue in the past.

Never underestimate the power of human ignorance. It's far worse than you can imagine and I have had the emails to prove it.

Example: I had a guy ask me to write a program to lay out coordinates for a (rectangular) grid of holes. (No lie!) I pointed out that, with the DRO he said he had, he didn't really need a program. He could simply use a calculator to develop the coordinates. Nevertheless, he insisted. Finally, to get rid of him, I wrote a program for him. (No, I never put it on my site.) When he received it, he wrote back and asked me what he was supposed to do when it asked for the "x increment between holes".

Since I don't answer emails that contain three or more egregious grammar/spelling errors in the first sentence, I never responded. He's probably still staring raptly at the command line prompt while furiously rubbing the mouse in hope that the genie will appear and give him another neuron to rub against the lonely one rattling around in his cranium.

 

[sparky961]

It seems as though I'm getting a bit away from the original topic here, so I'm not sure if this would be considered "thread hijacking"... but since we're still sort of talking about Marv Klotz's Utilities here, I suspect I'm still ok...

Anyway, it's funny that you mention the bolt rectangle thing. Although I agree 200% that the person you were dealing with probably wasn't worth your time, the bolt rectangle can be a bit challenging to get just right without having a bunch of "toys" like a DRO.

I presently have rudimentary 2-axis (no Z yet) NC with my setup. I also have a huge amount of backlash that rears it's head from time to time. So, I wrote up a simple program to help me drill a few accurate bolt rectangles a while back. It's written for TurboCNC, but there's nothing complicated about it.

Perhaps someone might find this useful in some other context. I wrote it as a "throw away" program, so be warned that you get what you pay for here.

Oh, and sorry for the caps... the keyboard I use for the dedicated NC computer sucks, so I just leave Caps Lock on.

-Sparky

-------

;2008-06-20
;
;DRILL A RECTANGULAR BOLT PATTERN CENTERED
;ON A DIFFERENT-SIZED RECTANGLE
;THAT HAS ONE CORNER ALIGNED AT 0, 0
;
;*** NOTE: APPROACH IS ALWAYS FROM SAME
; DIRECTION TO AVOID BACKLASH ERROR
;
; USES CALCULATED ABSOLUTE COORDINATES

G90

;STOCK RECTANGLE
#1000 = 87.950 ;WIDTH
#1001 = 136.90 ;LENGTH

;BOLT RECTANGLE
#2000 = 75 ;WIDTH
#2001 = 120 ;LENGTH

G00 X0 Y0

;BOTTOM LEFT
G90 G00 X[(#1001-#2001)/2] Y[(#1000-#2000)/2]
G91 G00 X-2 Y-2
G00 X2 Y2
M00 (DRILL)

;BOTTOM RIGHT
G90 G00 X[#1001-((#1001-#2001)/2)] Y[(#1000-#2000)/2]
G91 G00 X-2 Y-2
G00 X2 Y2
M00 (DRILL)

;TOP RIGHT
G90 G00 X[#1001-((#1001-#2001)/2)] Y[#1000-((#1000-#2000)/2)]
G91 G00 X-2 Y-2
G00 X2 Y2
M00 (DRILL)

;TOP LEFT
G90 G00 X[(#1001-#2001)/2] Y[#1000-((#1000-#2000)/2)]
G91 G00 X-2 Y-2
G00 X2 Y2
M00 (DRILL)

G90 G00 X0 Y0

M30

 

[mklotz]

Sparky,

I wasn't talking about a gcode program to actually drive a CAM machine. This guy wanted a program to calculate the (x,y) coordinates of the holes given a start point and an increment in x and an increment in y.

Think xi = xo + i*dx for 0<=i<=n.

 

[Bogstandard]

Leave poor Marv's proggies alone, I have been using them for a few years and have never had a real complaint. Get the job done, and thats all that is required. No cartoon screens or flashy techniques, input in, output out.

Rather than spending hours writing code, debugging plus anything else you modern day whizkids get up to, why not try my solution. A lot cheaper in the long run.

Go out to what you call garage sales, and I am sure you can pick up an old PC for a few bucks, here in the UK, go to the local tip and there are hundreds of the things. You will also most probably get '95 or '98 pre loaded, plus thousands of DOS games.
It might also teach a few of the Vista Kids how real computers run. Most of these old machines will take XP if you push them a little, and if needs must.

I have even been given 2 year old laptops running XP, the old owners thought they were upgrading when they went to Vista (they have more money than sense). I just clean them up, cleanse the drives and donate them to needy kids. They usually run a lot faster than the new ones the old users have bought.

Use those for running Marv's proggies. In fact if you are a whiz whiz kid, you could also use it to run your new fangled CNC jobbies, as I think the better sofware required doesn't like the new Vista system.

Problem totally solved.

Bogs

 

[sparky961]

"Thanks for offering, Sparky, but there's just no real demand for this right now."

-Sparky

 

[Cedge]

Sparky
The sheer number of Marv's children would make full rewrites a daunting task, even with a team of dedicated Marv fans. However... maybe there is another idea which would sharpen Ocam's razor.

Don't take me as any expert... but would an "environmental library" where his stored DOS versions could run within a JAVA interface be possible? Basically a Java(?) version of a DOS friendly environment with a selectable menu of Marv's magical offerings being called and used by the user.

One clean download... a total Marv program collection able to run on any platform seems more programmer and user friendly than the 1000 proglett rewrite. Future programs need only be added to their new world and renumbered as upgraded versions.

Like I said... no expert here.... just the twinkling of an incomplete idea.

Steve

 

[kvom]

I looked at the source code for one of the programs (BOLTCIRC). This is not really an issue with DOS per se, but with the Command Prompt window.

While Microsoft may decide to make some native DOS programs inoperable under Vista, it is most unlikely that they will do away with the Command Prompt. As long as a program uses standard MSC libraries and stdin/stdout as input and output devices, the program will work. Otherwise millions of command-line programs written in C and other languages would cease to be runable.

Rather than use the start/run/cmd sequence to launch the window, I prefer to create a shortcut icon on my desktop. Doing so allows modifying the properties of the window (color, buffer size, font, etc.) rather than relying on the default values.

 

[sparky961]

I understand that there's no reason why these programs won't run under a properly-configured command prompt. That's not the point. The point here is that the vast majority of people turn white and freeze up when presented with a command prompt, even if you make something that works extremely well with it. This is the reason why you no longer see "C:/>" after your computer boots up. Hell, even the most die-hard Linux fans out there usually run GUIs.

I agree with Cedge that it would be more efficient to wrap the existing code somehow, rather than totally re-write each module. However, it has been said in this discussion that there have been a number of offers for help in the past, and yet there still isn't any effort to that extent. Perhaps the reason, as I now see it, is that the effort simply wouldn't be appreciated.

Respectfully, I have plenty of things to keep me occupied, and I don't just give away my time to things that will go unappreciated. Not to mention that I have absolutely no problems running the programs as they stand - Vista, XP, or Windoze '95.

-Sparky

 

[shred]

I keep thinking they would be cool linked to a live web page that would run them for you, so all you'd have to do is surf on over and pick the one you wanted, but alas my web server is a Linux box, like 99.9% of them, making prototyping such a thing difficult.

 

[bhjones]

If I remember correctly, most if not all of those utilities come with the source code. One could either tweak these to compile on a unix/linux system or better yet for web use, grab the math out of the c code and rewrite them as php scripts.

 

[mklotz]

The source code is available for all of the programs written by ME - which is most of them. Folks who submit programs to the site have the option of not including source code if that is their preference.