Your feelings on Copyrights

[stevehuckss396]

You may or may not know that I'm building the Bob Shores Peewee V4 engine. I have produced drawings to draw the V4 out to a V8 and a V16.

The block, crank, cam, and heads have gotten longer but are still the same basic design.

Most of the parts like pistons, valves, lifters, ect. have not changed.

I have made additions to the engine like dipstick, balancer with timing pointer, ect.

I think it will be the project that i will use to teach myself how to use a CNC mill. Now the question....

If i were to make the plans available to others, would that be a violation of the V4 copyrights and protections. Dirk who sells the V4 castings seems to be a pretty stand up guy and I dont want to screw him over. Anybody out ther know something about this?

 

[Kermit]

The problem is you didn't take any of it and "make it your own". :-\

Are ALL of the dimensions the same? Only the crankshaft length changes?


If the a majority of the plans guts - the dimensions of all the parts is the same - then

It's still the other guys plan...protected.

Anyone?

 

[stevehuckss396]

The problem is you didn't take any of it and "make it your own". :-\

I wasn't really trying to make it my own tho it looks alot different than "stock". I have no plans to profit from it or produce castings for it. I just dont want to give plans to someone for the other versions if it violates the copyright.

I would say 40% of the parts wont change.

 

[RonGinger]

This is a topic that always brings out lots of feelings, usually more heat than light!

copyright only protects the actual original work- so if you simply redrew the entire engine in CAD or even on paper, that work becomes yours and is not a violation of the original copyright.

It may be a violation of the 'intellectual property' but since the PeeWee V4 is not patented, you are not technically violating that.

On a more personal basis- 'the right thing to do' I think it would be wrong to redraw the engine in CAD and post those drawing on the net. That would be stealing from Bob Shores estate.

But making a 'derivative work' using some of the parts but making it a V8 would be entirely new work and I see nothing wrong with posting, or even selling, those plans. Its a different engine- many guys would still only want to try a V4, so you have not hurt the original plan.

My opinion, worth just what you paid for it

 

[Maryak]

Gentlemen,

There have been several issues with and topics attempting to deal with copyright. It is a very complex area and one which I am not qualified to comment on.

Our forum has a very strong policy of not breaching copyright.

If IN ANY DOUBT don't do it and please don't post it or upload it to our forum.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[David Morrow]

Maybe the easiest thing to do is just ask Dirk. You may even be able to make a deal with him to have him sell your plans and pay you a royalty.

 

[jack404]

Bob, agreed

if some one of you invented from scratch a engine how would you feel seeing folks taking your work and profiting from it?

I make rifles, one i like to make is a Chicopee style but i have changed the design from the original soooo much its no longer called a chicopee style by experts but is refered to as "the Aussie Chicopee hybred" in the gun forums. Do similar with the engines .. its a heck of a lot of fun, frustration, and joy to make something your own.

i sell plans for this rifle at $10 ( USD for US folks AUD for Aussies postage inc.)

i was asked to make a replica DeLisle for a museum here and i asked them to contact the patent holder in the UK

after 2 months there letter was responded too that the patient holder was happy to have a replica made and would wave a copyright fee for this one example with the following conditions

patient name and number was to be listed the designers name would be included in the display and that photos be sent to the patient holder , so its done ( and the request was extreamly reasonable )

i've done similar with designs by Phillip Luty, and the estate of Mr Bill Holmes,

its not hard to get permission, but without permission , well to be blunt, its stealing,

some people will charge a fee, some will say no , full stop, but you gotta respect what ever the answer is.

not for profit and experiments are outside copyright so if your making a engine for yourself thats ok

if you make them to sell.. different story.. but plans check you local laws i think they stop you copying
especially when you can pay the equivalent of 3 coffee's for a plan set ( its being cheap)

i'd like to see folks support the designers, copyright globally is 30 years max. so they only have 30 years to regain thier costs of invention and then its pretty much open slather,

lifes too short to be mean , put yourself in the designers place and think how you'd feel.. ripped off is my guess.

do unto others

its a good guideline

cheers

jack

 

[Shopguy]

Whole heartily agree Jack. Very well said.
Ernie J

 

[tmuir]

i'd like to see folks support the designers, copyright globally is 30 years max. so they only have 30 years to regain thier costs of invention and then its pretty much open slather,

cheers

jack

This area is such a mine field which is why lawyers can make so much money for it.

I know copyright with respect to art / literature / photos etc is now 70 years in Oz since we signed the digital millennium act with the US. I would of thought plans would of fallen under that too.

But this is different to a registered patent which I believe is shorter.

As said above if unsure don't do it or contact the person who made the original drawings to make sure they don't have any issues with it

 

[David Morrow]

... copyright globally is 30 years max. so they only have 30 years to regain thier costs of invention and then its pretty much open slather,

jack

Don't confuse patents with copyrights. I recall from many years ago in one of my law classes that copyrights were benchmarked to the author's life.

A couple of excerpts from Wikipedia, hopefully written with some authority (caveat emptor):

Copyright has been internationally standardized, lasting between fifty to a hundred years from the author's death, or a finite period for anonymous or corporate authorship; some jurisdictions have required formalities to establishing copyright, most recognize copyright in any completed work, without formal registration. Generally, copyright is enforced as a civil matter, though some jurisdictions do apply criminal sanctions.

Most jurisdictions recognize copyright limitations, allowing "fair" exceptions to the author's exclusivity of copyright, and giving users certain rights.

Although there are consistencies among nations' intellectual property laws, each jurisdiction has separate and distinct laws and regulations about copyright.

 

[stevehuckss396]

Well from what i'm reading nobody seems to be sure so i'm going to take Maryaks good advice and just not do it. Like I said before, Dirk seemed to be a good guy who went way out of his way when I wanted some castings so I wont risk any harm to his business.

 

[chuck foster]

Steve i have been reading this thread and i for one would love a set of your v8 drawings ............. but i think you have made the right decision.
if dirk is a good guy trying to carry on bob shores ideas then more power to him and i respect your decision not to post the drawings.

just my thoughts.

chuck

 

[stevehuckss396]

Well the bad part is that it is a good size project for the guys with the "mini" machines. The block is just a shade less than 5 inches long making it doable.

Im going to try to work out a V8 maybe a bit smaller with about a .5 bore and stroke. Maybe an overhead cam design.

 

[shred]

I'd get with Dirk and see if maybe he wants to sell them for you or work a deal with the rights for the originals, if you've not done that already.

The home engine machining community is too small to be jacking with people and not have it come back around. I've seen people selling direct rip-off plans as if they were theirs, but they don't seem to last long.

 

[rleete]

copyright only protects the actual original work- so if you simply redrew the entire engine in CAD or even on paper, that work becomes yours and is not a violation of the original copyright.

Not true. This violates the standard phrase " ANY REPRODUCTION IN PART OR AS A WHOLE WITHOUT THE WRITTEN PERMISSION OF <INSERT NAME HERE> IS PROHIBITED." found on most engineering/architectual drawings. You are reproducing, whether it's a copy maching or manual job makes no difference. This has been a standard disclaimer for as long as I've been in the biz.

As a designer, I would feel pretty much ripped off if anyone redrew my stuff without contacting me first. I'd most likely give permission - even to sell the redrawn stuff - as I do it for my own enjoyment, not for profit. But it's common courtesy to ask. Echoing what shred says, it may come back to bite you. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[RonGinger]

I dont want to get this into a shouting match, but that is not quite an accurate view.

The US Gov Copyright web site http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
has this statement"

Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work.

So if you draw a part you hold copyright to that DRAWING, but not to that part. I can draw the same part, with the same 'factual information' and that drawing is my copyright.

Copyright is very weak protection.

 

[Kermit]

I think something my dad told me applies to this.

I asked him one time why they had doors labeled Exit and Entrance side by side, does it matter which door you use?

He said, "No, it's basically just a test of character".




Kermit

 

[Maryak]

Gentlefolk,

I am sure we all have better topics than this on which to lavish our effort and attention.

The very diversity of your comments and opinions show what a complex area of the law this is.

As far as the forum goes; any of us who moderate here will remove any post or upload which even looks like it might infringe copyright.

We are not acting out of malice or small mindedness but we are trying to keep the forum on line and out of the courts.

This is a great forum whose members share in a wonderful hobby, enjoy the camaraderie of interacting with like minded people and learn from each other.

Please let’s keep it that way and leave the esoteric points of law to the lawyers.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[seagar]

I second that Bob !!!

Ian.

 

[tel]

Sounds like a plan t'me as well.