what do you think of this Whippet Engine?

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awake

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If you looked at my profile you would also see I'm not American so would not have seen the adverts whatever age. As Awake says it could be taken for a racist comment particularly following the previous post with comments about Philippines and China from the same member by anyone who is not old enough and American.
Unfortunately, there are so many examples on both sides - examples of comments that really are racist, sometimes explicitly but also sometimes implicitly and perhaps unconsciously ... and there are examples of comments that were heard as racist when they really were not intended as such, even unconsciously. And to make life even more difficult, the line between these two can be very fuzzy. Certainly the way I first introduced the term was not intended to be racist at all ... and according to Richard, the actual manufacturer of the knives was based in USA ... but could there have been some racist overtones or motivation in the choice of the Asian-sounding brand name by this USA company? Could be ... but how can we tell?

The fact of the matter is, we are constantly bumping up against cultural and ethnic and other demographic boundaries in just about everything we say and do. It is difficult for us to escape our own history and heritage, the speech patterns and references that we learned along the way, and even harder for us to know if there might be some inherent bias at work in how those patterns and references evolved. It is all too easy to participate in biased patterns without consciously choosing to do so ... all too easy to accuse someone of being biased, and all too easy to deny any bias whatsoever.

Rather than being either accusatory or defensive, we might do better to acknowledge that we are all, always, biased in certain ways, both consciously and unconsciously - and then talk through how each of us is hearing something that is being said, vs. what we thought we were trying to say, and ponder together how we can better communicate with one another. At different times and in different contexts, some areas of bias are far more "charged" than others, due to personal history, surrounding events, and so on. Many of us have made comments that could well be perceived as age-biased, but in the context of this forum, where many of us acknowledge a certain, ahem, maturity of years, such comments are probably generally understood to be gentle teasing - often directed at oneself. In another context, though, or for another person who has experienced agism in a very negative way, these "innocent" comments may be heard as very painful. If that is true for someone, I want to know it so that I can be sensitive to how my comments are being heard.

I would say the way the dialogue unfolded here was a good example of how to handle the issue. Jasonb raised the question in a way that I perceived as straightforward inquiry. Richard and I explained the reference, and Jason acknowledged that that made sense. Now we both know more than we did before - Jason knows a bit of Americana, and I now realize that someone who does not share my history may hear this reference as racially "loaded" in ways that I certainly do not intend. A good, open dialogue to clear up misunderstanding.
 
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Richard Hed

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and one more thing, I'm sorry about your experience in the phils. but there is one old saying. He who was once bitten by a snake will be frightened at the sight of a noose/coiled rope.
I never heard that saying before. But I like it. A noose? Just so you know, I'm afraid of my own shadow. It has to do with the fact that I was raised by Wolves . . . .
 

Richard Hed

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Unfortunately, there are so many examples on both sides - examples of comments that really are racist, sometimes explicitly but also sometimes implicitly and perhaps unconsciously ... and there are examples of comments that were heard as racist when they really were not intended as such, even unconsciously. And to make life even more difficult, the line between these two can be very fuzzy. Certainly the way I first introduced the term was not intended to be racist at all ... and according to Richard, the actual manufacturer of the knives was based in USA ... but could there have been some racist overtones or motivation in the choice of the Asian-sounding brand name by this USA company? Could be ... but how can we tell?

The fact of the matter is, we are constantly bumping up against cultural and ethic and other demographic boundaries in just about everything we say and do. It is difficult for us to escape our own history and heritage, the speech patterns and references that we learned along the way, and even harder for us to know if there might be some inherent bias at work in how those patterns and references evolved. It is all too easy to participate in biased patterns without consciously choosing to do so ... all too easy to accuse someone of being biased, and all too easy to deny any bias whatsoever.

Rather than being either accusatory or defensive, we might do better to acknowledge that we are all, always, biased in certain ways, both consciously and unconsciously - and then talk through how each of us is hearing something that is being said, vs. what we thought we were trying to say, and ponder together how we can better communicate with one another. At different times and in different contexts, some areas of bias are far more "charged" than others, due to personal history, surrounding events, and so on. Many of us have made comments that could well be perceived as age-biased, but in the context of this forum, where many of us acknowledge a certain, ahem, maturity of years, such comments are probably generally understood to be gentle teasing - often directed at oneself. In another context, though, or for another person who has experienced agism in a very negative way, these "innocent" comments may be heard as very painful. If that is true for someone, I want to know it so that I can be sensitive to how my comments are being heard.

I would say the way the dialogue unfolded here was a good example of how to handle the issue. Jasonb raised the question in a way that I perceived as straightforward inquiry. Richard and I explained the reference, and Jason acknowledged that that made sense. Now we both know more than we did before - Jason knows a bit of Americana, and I now realize that someone who does not share my history may hear this reference as racially "loaded" in ways that I certainly do not intend. A good, open dialogue to clear up misunderstanding.
You are so right about this. Your analysis is superb and I especially salute your comments on inherent bias in the language itself. One thing I would point out: my mentions of Philippinos and Chinese--I suppose someone wishing to prove a point could claim my comments are racist, however, my comments are observational--that's all. In fact, I have a degree in Psychology, a minor in Anthropology--I have been trained to observe people and societies. Also, it is well known that the very best observers are people trained in . . . Physics! I also have a minor in Physics, so I am all set to obseerve people and societies.

If you were to read a book, I think it is called "The Boston School . . . System?" you would read about a teacher who claimed she was not racist but certainly did racist things, while there was a man who claimed he was indeed racist but did NOT do racist things. ???? Often we get things backward and especially so when we have an agenda for finding racism in every little word we say. Last year, I used the word "Mexican" to a Mexican lady who just about called management because I had used a racist word! NO KIDDING! My daughter told me to use the word "hispanic". What a total krok of you know waht! I was trying to explain to this lady why I had a difficult time understanding the "Hispanics" when talking over a radio in a loud combine I was driving. She would not allow me to explain, but for your benefit it is this: Mexicans tend to drop the ends of words,for instance, the word "five", we pronounce as fah eev, but many Mex' truncate it to fah ee. Many words are truncated like that, and it certainly is difficult to understand in a loud combine over a radio! Also, their language pronouces certain phonemes (letter/characters) differently. Notably, "b/v". a "b" sounds a lot like a "v" and vice-versa.

There is NO racism in pointing this out -- UNLESS one is trying to take advantage of such a situation. Most racists are only trying to make themselves look better at the expense of someone else.
 

minh-thanh

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Just a question : If someone else does the same thing is it spam ?
( I have commented on the color of this engine with stirlingkit on facebook.)
 

awake

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A good example of what I would guess is a "charged" situation for this woman. Not sure if it is true out where you are, but around here, there is a good bit of bias in the Hispanic community against Mexicans. According to some of our friends, people from Costa Rica or Guatemala or so on will tend to assume that Mexicans are lower on cultural and economic scales. If the same is true where you are, then I could imagine that someone is far more likely to assume that "Mexican" is meant in a negative way - because that is what their repeated experience has been. :(
 

davidyat

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Being an original Baby Boomer, born in 1946, I'm so glad I grew up in those times. Granted we had social problems back then, but at least in the 1950's I had "Parents" they were not my "Friends". My Mother told the Nuns that taught me, "It's OK to discipline me". And if I didn't, my Mom would be up at the school instantly to "discipline" me in front of my classmates. And Southern California wasn't as populated in the 1960's as it is today. Yes, I did stupid things as a young adult, thankfully didn't hurt anyone and when I was caught, I took the punishment because I knew I deserved it. You see that Man in my avatar, He's my Father. I worshiped the ground He and my Mom walked on because they didn't give me everything I wanted, but they gave me everything I needed.
Grasshopper
 

awake

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I think I am the one who raised the possibility of spam. Hopefully I did not do so in a way that makes it seem like I have the right to decide what does or does not fall into that category! (If I did, my apologies!) But as the one who started this train ... to me, commenting on someone else's product is not spam. Neither is calling attention to one's own product, so long as one is up front about it being one's own product. What makes me start to think "spam" is when someone repeatedly comments on a product in such a way that it begins to seem as though the goal is not to ask questions or offer opinions, but rather to advertise ... without being up front about it. My $0.02 ...
 

Richard Hed

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A good example of what I would guess is a "charged" situation for this woman. Not sure if it is true out where you are, but around here, there is a good bit of bias in the Hispanic community against Mexicans. According to some of our friends, people from Costa Rica or Guatemala or so on will tend to assume that Mexicans are lower on cultural and economic scales. If the same is true where you are, then I could imagine that someone is far more likely to assume that "Mexican" is meant in a negative way - because that is what their repeated experience has been. :(
This is an agricultural area, mostly Mex. I have made a lot of amigos among them too. There is more to be said about this lady, frankly, she was ignorant and trying to make herself "big"--she bossed everyone around, Mexicans too, and was not very well liked except for the three "friends" of hers which she kept on a tight, tight, tite rope. I suspect she had "friends" only because they could bask in her power. Amongst people in general, however, this is NOT the rule for people. If society has 1% that are psychopaths, they make it appear there are more than there really is simply because they are so visible and wreck people's lives so often.
 

Richard-Vanderpol

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Just a question : If someone else does the same thing is it spam ?
( I have commented on the color of this engine with stirlingkit on facebook.)
no. i think you are new to this brand. check out what other famous Youtubers say about this brand.
 

L98fiero

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Unfortunately, there are so many examples on both sides - examples of comments that really are racist, sometimes explicitly but also sometimes implicitly and perhaps unconsciously ... and there are examples of comments that were heard as racist when they really were not intended as such, even unconsciously. And to make life even more difficult, the line between these two can be very fuzzy. Certainly the way I first introduced the term was not intended to be racist at all ... and according to Richard, the actual manufacturer of the knives was based in USA ... but could there have been some racist overtones or motivation in the choice of the Asian-sounding brand name by this USA company? Could be ... but how can we tell?

The fact of the matter is, we are constantly bumping up against cultural and ethnic and other demographic boundaries in just about everything we say and do. It is difficult for us to escape our own history and heritage, the speech patterns and references that we learned along the way, and even harder for us to know if there might be some inherent bias at work in how those patterns and references evolved. It is all too easy to participate in biased patterns without consciously choosing to do so ... all too easy to accuse someone of being biased, and all too easy to deny any bias whatsoever.

Rather than being either accusatory or defensive, we might do better to acknowledge that we are all, always, biased in certain ways, both consciously and unconsciously - and then talk through how each of us is hearing something that is being said, vs. what we thought we were trying to say, and ponder together how we can better communicate with one another. At different times and in different contexts, some areas of bias are far more "charged" than others, due to personal history, surrounding events, and so on. Many of us have made comments that could well be perceived as age-biased, but in the context of this forum, where many of us acknowledge a certain, ahem, maturity of years, such comments are probably generally understood to be gentle teasing - often directed at oneself. In another context, though, or for another person who has experienced agism in a very negative way, these "innocent" comments may be heard as very painful. If that is true for someone, I want to know it so that I can be sensitive to how my comments are being heard.

I would say the way the dialogue unfolded here was a good example of how to handle the issue. Jasonb raised the question in a way that I perceived as straightforward inquiry. Richard and I explained the reference, and Jason acknowledged that that made sense. Now we both know more than we did before - Jason knows a bit of Americana, and I now realize that someone who does not share my history may hear this reference as racially "loaded" in ways that I certainly do not intend. A good, open dialogue to clear up misunderstanding.
This demonstrates that it's not always what you say but what people hear, it's a reflection of the experiences of each person.

I think everyone has biases and prejudices, they are derived from our personal history, whether one is racist or not just depends on what we do with them.

As far as the Ginsu Knives comment, I'm not sure but I think when they came up with the name, it was because of the quality of some imported Japanese knives at the time and wouldn't have been considered racist, more complimentary.

FWIW, because it was posted on so many threads, I too thought it was spam.
 
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Richard Hed

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This demonstrates that it's not always what you say but what people hear, it's a reflection of the experiences of each person.

I think everyone has biases and prejudices, they are derived from our personal history, whether one is racist or not just depends on what we do with them.

As far as the Ginsu Knives comment, I'm not sure but I think when they came up with the name, it was because of the quality of some imported Japanese knives at the time and wouldn't have been considered racist, more complimentary.

FWIW, because it was posted on so many threads, I too thought it was spam.
For probably 30 years I thot the Ginsu knives were actually Japanese origin. Then one day (about 30 years ago) I was watching a late nite talk show in which one of the originators was explaining the origin of the knives. He was an American, acted just like a used car salesman, and had grown rich thru his various enterprises. He laft about how he and his partner could not sell these great knives (they actualy were very good knives), and so sthey changed the name. And then proceeded to push the knives like used car salesmen. This is a true story. This was the start of their fortunes that they made, it was very successful. (My Wolf family always said, " A succesfull success fool sux from a cesspool", so I'm not too sure that this type of success is not really success.)
 

Richard-Vanderpol

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This demonstrates that it's not always what you say but what people hear, it's a reflection of the experiences of each person.

I think everyone has biases and prejudices, they are derived from our personal history, whether one is racist or not just depends on what we do with them.

As far as the Ginsu Knives comment, I'm not sure but I think when they came up with the name, it was because of the quality of some imported Japanese knives at the time and wouldn't have been considered racist, more complimentary.

FWIW, because it was posted on so many threads, I too thought it was spam.
as for a young man like me, I'm 30 years old. when I heard of Ginsu Knives, i thought of it was racism too. but after seeing everybody's explanation, i'm fine now. and sorry for sending repeat posts because I'm new here. not knowing where to post is the best way.
 

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