Werowance attempts Upshur Vertical Single

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werowance

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unfortunately the cams are already locked in 1 solid piece with locktight as per plans / instructions, which I guess Is why he is saying the cam timing is done like he's describing.

so I cant loosen the cam lobes, they are solid 101deg appart. only thing at this point that is not tight is the gear on the cam. that's last freely rotating part.

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werowance

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still slowly making progress. had to re-do the cam as one of the lobes did not setup on the lock tight. must have had oil or somthing still on the shaft. but i cleaned everything and this time the lobes arent moving. locktighted in the carb to the intake tube, dissasembled and cleaned the head and cylinder, replaced the springs with lighter weight ones as i was not happy with the first ones i had, painted the clyinder, cut a bunch of screws to length dropped many of them in the floor when sanding the end clean after cutting thus redoing several screws. also made the oil drain plug screw out of some brass hex.

still have to make 1 busing on the crank and remake 1 busing on the cam as it split on me. after that i think its go time

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CFLBob

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Looking good! But when did that cylinder and the top plate turn black? Is that engine paint?
 

werowance

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its vht header paint. good to 2000 deg f I figure if the cylinder gets that hot it will melt the solder holding it to the base plate. the 1215 steel almost like 12L14 rusts really easily. the fins were picking up surface rust just from the air in the garage so It needed something to stop it. the pictures in the plans of the engine show it black like I did mine.

Last night I got the bushings done from brass tube. had to expand the tube by pressing a piece of steel rod through it in the hydraulic press. kept it hot while slowing pressing it through. that worked really well. locktighted the counterweight/screws for them so they don't vibrate lose. I hope to day to get the piston, rod and rings all installed and then points and timing after that.
 

werowance

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Well I keep breaking piston rings. I wonder if I anneal them in the oven for a bit they will be less brittle
 

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Sprocket

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If you are heating them to red, then cooling in air, I'm not sure the oven would improve on that. If you are breaking them trying to put them on the piston,
it could be technique. Try pressing the side away from the split into groove (or against the piston) with your thumbs as you spread the split open just enough to clear the top of the piston. In theory, when you let it go, it should have the same opening as when you started, if not, you are spreading the opening too much.
Doug
(if you can find the George Trimble articles from Strictly I.C about making rings, he explains this very well. It also might give you a different size rod to open your ring, a ratio of the bore, which might make installing easier.)
 

CFLBob

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I also find that smearing the piston with SAE 30 oil helps. I always wonder how I got the rings onto the piston, but I've gotten them on four times so far.

Getting them off is another question. Tried it twice, broke them both.
 

werowance

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Sprocket, i appreciate i will see what i can find on George Trimbles articles. but that said:

a few things, i have some experience installing rings, be it 454's, 350's or on the blue side 351 clevelands. then briggs and stratton and techumseh. and the more recently on the webster engine. these rings i am making - which i have never made before are brittle. i know all rings are somewhat brittle but not like this. i just finished making a test ring using a somewhat different method. not nearly as hot, a medium to low red heat spread to the exact specs outlined in the instructions. i then slowly let the heat come down. this time on this ring i was using a plumbers soldering torch. once i hit the red i kept it there about a min, then slowy brought the torch off of it. then even after that i went to the toaster oven and it had a soak in 400 deg F for 1 hour.

this ring was better, but not like store bought better and it split to. i question my cast iron

i am using perlitic grey cast iron. im wondering if i might need to try some dura bar cast iron? and what is ductile cast iron? anything like described above?

edited ad on, if i just compare to the store bought webster rings, they would spread much easier without as much force needed to try and spread them and they also seemed more springy i guess is the best way to describe it.
 

aka9950202

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When making my piston rings from the Mini break cylinders I made the rings, used a pair of side cutters to split then. Put the rings on a small rod using the split ends to hold themselves on the rod. Heated until red hot. The rings simply fell off once they reached the correct temperature. Then squared the ends, lapped to thickness.
I used the "professor Cradock " method.
 

werowance

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Thanks AKA, that was actually the first procedure i folllowed, with the exception of using side cutters to split, i split them by using 2 clamps and gave just a little tweak to split.

now on the rod and heating, they would not fall off. in fact i could heat the iron till it would start to melt and it wouldnt fall off.
 

aka9950202

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That is strange. I had the rod horizontal across the hearth (5 fire bricks to form a temporary hearth) which worked for me. I found the rings that were heated with Oxy/Mapp failed with the slightest touch when installing. I tried again with a large wide flame Propane torch which worked for me.

Cheers,

Andrew in Melbourne
 

werowance

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closer to success, heated the rod first to red a little before were the ring was positioned, let the heat draw up the rod and start coloring the ring to different colors, blue staw etc. then brought to the dull red. afterwards soaked the ring in 450 f for 1 hour then 400 1 hour then 375 1 hour. this morning the ring was much better than all the rest but still no joy. last night while all this heating was going on i started cutting some unknown piece of i guess farm equipment down. the powder it leaves is much finer and also blacker than the continuos cast perlitic gray cast iron store bout rod i had. cuts easily with a dull cracked bandsaw blade as well. did a little 1/8 slice off the end and then broke it between to chanel locks and the grain appears finer as well. so as i type this i have this test ring in the easy bake oven as well just as a trial.

im having trouble with the pics so next post will be from my phone with just the pics of the scrap cast iron i am testing with
 

Sprocket

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Try splitting the rings some other way. I've seen them sawed, chiseled, side cut as AKA, but not broken with clamps. You may be stressing the opposite side of the ring as you break it, and that makes it just enough weaker to break on installation. Mark (dnalot) showed a neat way with a chisel in a mill or drill press and a little divot in the support piece. Maybe one of the engineers can explain, but often ring structures break in two places when stress is applied.
(Mark's method is on page 6 of his Holt thread, post #119)
Doug
 

werowance

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sprocket, actually on this test i did it with side cutters. amazed at how well that worked. ring is just now about ready to come out of the toaster oven. 450, 400, 375, 350, 325 all but the last for an hour per setting.

hope tommorow is a success......
 

werowance

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now thats MUCH better. this test ring made from the piece off scrap farm equipment cast iron works SO much better. first ring installed without problems. its "springier" and more flexible than the store bought iron rod i bought.

now wish me luck on the 2nd one whch i still have to split, spread the gap and heat, then slowly bake in the toaster oven. which im not sure that helped any but im not going to jinx it by not doing exactly the same thing i did on this one.
 

Sprocket

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Now try one with this technique and the old material to see which made the difference.
Change one variable at a time or you won't really know what worked.
Doug
 

werowance

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ok, the ring saga is over, i have success and am now breaking in the engine slowly. the piston rod is a bit to tight on the crank and the rings at first were giving resistance. at this point the rings are moving good and the rod is getting there.

what i have learned. the number 40 continuous cast perlitic gray cast iron just wasnt as good as the scrap farm iron i had. now dont get me wrong - i do not recomend you go out and get say window weights (tried that before and they are aweful) but this iron gave finer filings and were blacker than the store bought was. and when i say finer - cast iron doesnt make spiral swarf like steel or the other, it just makes nasty powder like sand. and the old farm iron made very fine sand and very dark in color as compared to the store bought.

now next things. first go round on the farm iron rings was a failure. why - because i made mistake on the bore hole size. a signifigant one. the rings went on but were way to thick to compress to the piston diameter. measured them against my original ones and imediately found my mistake.

so fortunatly i had not unchucked the farm iron and i bored it on further to the proper size..


Final results - farm iron was much more springier, better cutting better grain etc than store bought which surprises me. on second set of farm iron rings i did not do the toaster oven heatings of 450 etc. but that said i could tell a big difference of not doing the toaster oven. the rings did not want to spread like the previous set of farm iron rings did. so that said i would recomend using the easy bake toaster oven for several hours to aneal the rings. but last set i wanted to try without and the worked ok. and the toaster oven comes after the spread gap and heat to dull red or just until it wants to drop. the toaster oven is not for setting the spreaded gap. just to keep it from cracking afterwards

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