Steam Locomotives

[Bastelmike]

Hi All,

there are a bunch of plans in the library, but not what I'm currently looking for.
I am planning to build a model steam locomotive, gauge 7 1/4". Are there any good free plans available, or some plans for sale?
Anyone here with some experience in building such a steamer ?

Looking for all kinds of information

Mike

 

[doubletop]

Mike

I'd suggest free plans are unlikely and if you did get any they'd limit your scope of what would be a big investment. I'd suggest you look around work out what loco you'd like to do first

All the UK steam loco 'names' seem to hang out over here http://modeleng.proboards.com/index.cgi and would be very helpful in the decision on what you'd want to do..

Pete

 

[Tin Falcon]

Mike : I doubt if you are going to find free loco plans. A loco is a major project just to draw up a good reliable set of blueprints.
It is my understanding from a little Google that 7 1/4 Gage is the same as 1 1/2 inch to the foot scale.

The good news is Kozo Hiraoka has written 5 books on locomotive building. KVOM is building the PA A-2 switcher and documenting the build here.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f31/kozo-a3-1-5-scale-10775/

Kozo is a bit of a folk hero here in the states among the model steam train guys. More info on him and his books here.
http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Hiraoka.htm

Villiage press publisher of home shop machinist publishes the books. Current list is $50 us or $220 for all five books. They are also sold by dealers and on e-bay. for as little as $34.

https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1673

Tin

 

[GWRdriver]

Hello Mike,
I build locomotives (or a locomotive) in 7"+ga and you've taken the first step which is to settle on 7.25"ga. The next step is to choose a locomotive, or a type of locomotive, or a familial group of locomotives, and then go looking for drawings to see if anything close by is already available. You might very well do it the other way round . . . go looking for drawings and select one you like from the ones available.

Generally all locomotive designs from the USA be in 7.5"ga/1.5" or 1.6" scale. Because of the way US locomotives are designed you would be able to convert many of those to 7.25"ga. Whether they would convert easily is difficult to say and would depend upon the locomotive. The majority of 7.25" designs will come, first, from England and then the Continent.

As for free drawings, until maybe 15 years ago drawings for model locos weren't all that expensive and if you were lucky a set of drawings and text could be found in one of the model engineering magazines. Frequently builders sold off the drawings for their completed projects for very reasonable prices. I've gotten a couple of sets of drawings from builders which cost me only postage and a thank you letter. Also, in the early days in the USA, if you bought the castings the appropriate drawings were always supplied along with the castings and were included in the price. Nowadays drawings have gotten to be quite expensive to buy (IMHO) and aren't offered for sale as frequently or as inexpensively (or given away) as they once were. Copyright issues probably play some role in that.

What has to be kept in mind is that a good set of drawings can be the most beneficial, time-saving, and nerve-saving thing you can do for yourself when planning a project. Good drawings are usually worth the money asked if for no other reason than to do a great deal of the thinking (designing) for you, and designing and drawing a loco is a very time-consuming task. Also, a poorly executed set of drawings (or no drawings) is one of the things most likely to result in frustration, disappointment, and ultimately project failure. As has been discussed many times in model engineering magazines and now web sites, errors still occur and have been allowed to remain in many very old, often-built designs, but there is plenty of help and fore-warning available for most of these, should you end up with an older design.

 

[Bastelmike]

Hello Tin and Harry,

thank You for Your replies. A friend of mine has started building a 7 1/4" garden railway (with some help from me) and after two waggons we are currently working on a model diesel engine. Well, to be correct its a gasoline engine (used lawn mower engine) with hydrostatic propulsion, so its design wasn't a real complex task.

Designing a steam engine is nothing I feel competent for, so we have to rely on a reliable plan set for this.

You are right, Tin, its 1:8 scale, thats what You call 1.5" to a foot, for me a very strange designation

In general, we are also willing to buy a plan set for a loco if it looks like good quality. We are at present just in the planning stage for steam; looking around what might be doable for us. Any links to plans, free or commercial are very welcome. I haven't found any German plans for this scale yet, so we have to look for plans outside Germany.

It would be very desirable to get plans in metric; my collection of imperial taps is very limited and I don't own a single drill bit or reamer in imperial size. Also the acquisition of imperial raw material is a difficult task, at least its pretty expensive here compared to metric stuff.
Therefore I am in doubt whether an expensive imperial set of drawings is worth the money Metrification of all drawings is a huge task and for sure a potential source for new errors, while doing it in imperial will increase costs for material and tools probably twofold or more.

Your link, Tin, to KVOMs build is very interesting, thank You. I will study it in detail.

There are still a number of unsolved questions for us:

1. boiler fabrication
From this and other websites I've learned that most model engine boilers are manufactured by silver soldering.
I must admit my experience with soldering is low, and not always successful
What are the reasons model builders obviously don't weld their boilers? Thats a technique I am much more comfortable with, stick welding, MIG welding. A bit experience with TIG welding has that friend of mine too.

If soldering is essential for the boiler, we will have to look for someone willing and capable of doing this for us.

2. mass of a 7 1/4" engine
While dimensions can easily be estimated by the scale, its much more difficult to estimate the weight of such a project. Is my estimate of 400-800 lbs realistic?
That would be fine for my shop crane (~1100 lbs capacity), I could handle the complete engine with it

3. tools and machines needed
Probably KVOM could tell me a lot more about what he has used for his project (and maybe missed a lot). Is a CNC mill desirable/necessary? I don't have one
What size machines and tools are at minimum necessary?

Mike

 

[Tin Falcon]

Mike as far as boiler fabrication this has to do with several factors. The first one to consider is what are the rules /laws in Germany and specifically your part of the country. Boiler regulations differ country to country and state to state province to province.
The second consideration is material: the preferred material for small boilers is copper. if you were doing a 3/4 to the foot loco copper would be great. but at the larger scale you are using steel is the preferred material.
with steel you will likely want to weld not silver solder. Hydrogen is the welders enemy it cased the weld to get brittle. so you need to use structural grade welding rod in the USA e7018 is the standard low hydrogen rod sealed in a container at the factory and stored in an oven on site to keep moister out. If not used in an hour or so back in the oven to dry.

Mig may be usable with dual shield. flux core wire feed and a special gas mix IIRC we used something called stargon a blend of argon, CO2 and O2 .I worked in a structural fabrication shop for a while.

boiler tubes are often swagged in place to allow replacement,

This all refers back to what the laws say or do not say. You may need certified materials , you may need it to be assembled by a certified welder.Or fabricated in a certified boiler shop. You may need to summit it for Non destructive testing by a certified test lab. Requirements may be dictated by use. If you and your family are the only ones to use it you may be able to do as you see fit. If there is public exposier to it then you may be required to meet tougher certifications. Size is another factor small hobby boilers are often unregulated. But again the definition of small, hobby and personal use may vary from area to area.
So first step get a lawyer. Just kidding do your research before you start your build to see what the rules are where you live.

I think the inches to the foot scaling method is likely an american architectural scale. Since locomotives are large and most draftsmen of the time were trained on using that scaling system and scales are marked that way it just transferred over.
As far as metric goes I expected you would want to use that measuring system . I will look at my A3 book and see if there are references to metric conversion. I would expect you can just substitute in a lot of areas like 6mm for 1/4 inch etc . as far as fasteners go you should be able to do the same thing and use your taps. And some places you may just have to do the math.
I also have the Kozo A-2 book so I can probably answer some more questions based on that. I will browse through it when i get a chance.
The Kozo books are top quality and IMHO a good value. the book is $ 50 which less than an hours time for a tradesman here in the USA. I would expect any engineer or designer would charge something around $100 or more per hour.
that is what a customer charges we do not see that in our pay checks.
Tin

 

[kvom]

One suggestion I'd make is to visit the Chaski live steam forum: http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewforum.php?f=8

There are at least two very experienced German builders there who could give you localized advice.

Almost any locomotive with outside valve gear (i.e., not Stephenson) can be regauged from 7.5 to 7.25 without too many problems. Many tracks in the NE part of the US are 7.25, so plans do exist.

The distinction between 1.5 and 1.6 scale has to do with the standard US track, which is 4'8" or 56". So to match the width of the locomotive model to the width of the track you'd use 1.6" to the foot (7.5/56*12). This would be a personal preference. Some engines, esp. those used for mining and logging, ran on 3' rails. To get the proportions correct these models are usually 2.5 scale, hence much larger and heavier.

Other comments on your post:

- I would not be concerned about fastener size, You can use the nearest metric equivalents without any problems.

- Silver soldering for boiler construction is used for copper boilers. Very few large copper boilers are being made these days, so welded steel is pretty much the norm here in the US. My boiler was made by stick welding, with copper flues rolled in. You get a heavier engine that way, something good for traction.

- My A3 is the smallest (0-4-0) wheel configuration possible. Its empty weight will be about 250 lbs when complete. Bigger engines will be proportionally heavier. If you want a lighter, simpler engine you can look at those with vertical boilers like the CliShay or Crab.

- You don't need CNC equipment, although it made things easier for me. You need a lathe large enough to turn the wheels. I have a Bridgeport knee mill, and I don't think I'd want to go much smaller. The frames will be the longest piece that needs milling. Many builders here will have the frame cut out by water jet or laser. Then the finish milling on the frames is much easier.

- Some parts are much easier to make starting with castings. Selecting a locomotive to build should probably be based on whether castings are available for these parts. For the A3 I could purchase castings for the drivers and cylinders. The smokebox saddle is often difficult to fabricate so a casting is preferable.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Tin Falcon]

I just browsed through the Kozo A-3 book. I see no mention of conversion to metric But I am reminded this is way more than a plan set it is a how to book . It is highly illustrated with drawings and photos. there are step by step instructional for setups. There is an appendix of how to set up a shop and what tools are needed. this is a foundational book on locomotive building as well as plans for the a-3.
Tin

 

[kvom]

I just browsed through the Kozo A-3 book. I see no mention of conversion to metric But I am reminded this is way more than a plan set it is a how to book . It is highly illustrated with drawings and photos. there are step by step instructional for setups. There is an appendix of how to set up a shop and what tools are needed. this is a foundational book on locomotive building as well as plans for the a-3.
Tin

I'm 99% sure that Kozo was thinking in metric and just converted to the nearest English value. How else to explain all those 5/32 dimensions?

 

[Tin Falcon]

interesting point. You are deeper in than I am I have the book and have browsed a few times. I did notice on hole calling for a 6mm reamer.
I expect Kozo thought in metric but not sure.
5/32 would be 4 mm.
Tin

 

[deverett]

Mike

I see you live in Germany. You have just missed possibly the biggest model steam exhibition in Europe: Sinsheim.
http://www.ecplaza.net/tradefair/Modellbau-Friedrichshafen-2013---model-building-fair--o5925.html

For some inspiration, make sure you go next year!

In the meantime see if there are any model steam clubs near where you are living. Being able to talk to someone face to face is (in my opinion) much better than soliciting advice over the internet.

There are several German steam engine designs, that is assuming you want a local design. If you want a British design, then go to one of the British suppliers. Likewise North American. A quick Google search will give you the names of suppliers of your chosen country.

Let us know what you find and decide on building.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

 

[cncjunior]

Hi Bastelmike,

I am from a club in Burnaby British Columbia, Canada. We have 7 1/2" gauge track. All tracks on the west coast of Canada and USA are 7 1/2" gauge. As Tin and Kvom have said the regulations regarding steam boilers varies from area to area though a private track might be exempt from regulations if for private use only. My suggestion is to find a club near your area if possible and find out more information from them.

A couple of points I'd like to address. One thing to take note of is your track that you are building. What minimum radius curves are you building on the rails? The minimum radius will determine what maximum size your steam loco can be. At our club we have a minimum radius of 60' or 18.3m. With this we can just about handle any size loco even a big 4-6-6-4 challenger.

The weight of your loco will depend on the wheel arrangement. Our biggest steam loco is our 4-8-4 Northern. It is about 1100 lbs with a copper boiler (built around 1936 in the UK). As with any loco, the ability to pull a train depends on the loco's weight. We have folks using heavy side frames and use lead in pockets to gain extra weight. I suspect that you won't be pulling a lot of weight given this is in a back yard.

With your boiler I would look into something called a Briggs boiler. Briggs boiler uses typically dry sides and dry back. Replacing the sides and back are internal copper tube plumbing that is inside the fire box. It makes for a good steamer ie one that raises steam easy. One note about Steal boilers is that rust does happen on the inside of boilers and wastes away. With good practices a boiler will last over 10 years or more before needing to be replaced. All depends on number of steam ups and time between steam ups.

There are UK suppliers that have drawings available though I am not sure if they have converted drawings to metric or not. There is a magazine called Model Engineer that have builds in them with metric drawings attached for various locos. This might be an option.

Another option for model building is the Australian Model Engineer magazine. Australia is leading the way for model boiler construction in that they are using a stainless steal alloy for some of their builds that the government has recognized and has created new boiler codes for.
http://www.ameng.com.au/australian_model_engineering_magazine_contents.htm

Daniel

 

[chipenter]

Here in the UK most copper boiler manufacturers Tig weld them , I know Maxitrak do , have a look at A J Reeves for drawings and castings , or Model Engineer magazine .

 

[Bastelmike]

Mike as far as boiler fabrication this has to do with several factors. The first one to consider is what are the rules /laws in Germany and specifically your part of the country. Boiler regulations differ country to country and state to state province to province.
The second consideration is material: the preferred material for small boilers is copper. if you were doing a 3/4 to the foot loco copper would be great. but at the larger scale you are using steel is the preferred material.
with steel you will likely want to weld not silver solder. .
Tin

Hy Tin,

just have started checking boiler regulations. It's a bit complicated because shortly new EU regulations have replaced national rules. What I found out yet is there are prob only 2 ways.

1. Using it only in private and never under steam in public You can build what You want. If anyone gets hurt its Your liability
2. Welding boilers needs a certification, so can't be done at home. As far as I've found out yet, if You use soldering or rivets, no need for certification.
3. Exceptions for small boilers are very limited; really tiny boilers are exempted. Enough to build a loco for HO gauge (1:87)

But I'm still actively collecting more infos.

Mike

 

[Bastelmike]

@GWRdriver

Harry,

to my knowledge there is no 7.5" track in Germany anywhere. Also we've built already two waggons and are slowly working on an IC locomotive, therefore we definitely have to stay with 7.25"

Mike

 

[Bastelmike]

- I would not be concerned about fastener size, You can use the nearest metric equivalents without any problems.

Yes, we will do it this way. Don't want to do internet shopping for every bolt or nut we need.
Even worse than fasteners are imperial steel bars. You won't have much luck aquiring 3" square tube in Germany; except You are importing a truckload of this stuff

- My A3 is the smallest (0-4-0) wheel configuration possible. Its empty weight will be about 250 lbs when complete. Bigger engines will be proportionally heavier. If you want a lighter, simpler engine you can look at those with vertical boilers like the CliShay or Crab.

I don't mind some weight, especially for locomotives. Guess our diesel engine will have ~500lbs when its finally complete.

- You don't need CNC equipment, although it made things easier for me. You need a lathe large enough to turn the wheels. I have a Bridgeport knee mill, and I don't think I'd want to go much smaller. The frames will be the longest piece that needs milling. Many builders here will have the frame cut out by water jet or laser. Then the finish milling on the frames is much easier.

I have browsed through the forums to see Your shop.

Nice great shop, KVOM

Wish I had such a large shop, my equipment is shattered over 2 basement rooms and a 2-car garage.
I don't own a CNC mill and a surface grinder, hopefully they aren't essential for Your build?
My lathe and mills are a bit larger, so it should work for the large parts too. One good point is I see a lot of small parts in Your build thread, therefore my friend can hopefully machine most parts himself on his 3-in-1 machine.
It's his railroad; just promised him to aid in design and drawings and make the large parts.

Mike

 

[davebreeze]

Here's a Swiss loco design, all in metric:
http://www.ateliermb.ch/shops/gussteile/eu/contents/de/d34.html

Lovely little loco, would love to build one myself.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Dave : wow over 400 euros for the plans . I know saves time on conversion etc. Maybe I am spoiled but here in the USA we can buy all 5 of the KOZO books for $220 US . not that I have time to build 5 locos maybe one or two.
Tin

 

[GWRdriver]

Harry, to my knowledge there is no 7.5" track in Germany anywhere.

Mike,
Yes I assumed that, a foregone conclusion on my part. My meaning was that IF you were to order prints from the USA they would almost certainly be for 7.5"ga and you might (or might not) be able to convert them to 7.25", depending upon the loco. What would be your standard equivalent track gauge in Germany, 18cm? Or would you use 7.25"?

 

[kvom]

The Kozo A3 could rather easily be built in 7.25 vs. 7.5 gauge. Just reduce the length of all parts that bridge the frame by .25". There are not that many such parts. Everything that's outside the frame or attached to only one frame remains the same.