Shop layout, necessities

[Tin Falcon]

the swing is in theory the largest diameter piece you can put in the lathe and turn this is a US definition. In reality the chuck jaws take up space and reduce the real capacity. Sometimes one has to be real creative to turn max published cap. the second number in lathe size is center to center distance this is the longest piece one can turn between centers but again this can be reduced by tooling . drill chucks and drills can eat up space quickly.
Europe and UK states swing as a radius so a 7 inch lathe in the US woudls be a 3 1/2 in in the UK or Europe.
Tin

 

[Rayanth]

I think I just had a lightbulb moment. I was also for some reason misremembering that the Sherlines were 7x's, and now that I look at their website again it seems they are 3.5x's

So, obviously it won't work for my needs after all... hmm

I understand there are very differing opinions on CNC... and I myself am still of two minds on it. My thoughts on CNC are that it can help me obtain some much more complex shapes than is possible by hand, simply because CNC can move multiple axes at the same time, with precision... Last time I checked, you needed superpowers to do that by hand =) While castings are usually used to get these shapes, castings have to start from somewhere, and I figured CNC would be the way to go. I'm also a very computer-oriented individual, being of the generation that grew up with them becoming the main thing... and am not hesitant at all to give it a try.

However I do understand CNC is more expensive. I can try and save money by doing it myself, but I'm wary of ending up with a system not capable of the precisions I may need - for example, the strange angles I will need of my rotary table (51.42857 degrees, 25.71428 degrees, etc) I doubt I could accomplish by hand, and building CNC by hand might introduce too much slop or backlash... Naturally I'm thinking of this without knowing much, so feel free to correct me.

My last thought is that going CNC 'later' would probably be better, financially. I could get into the hobby faster without waiting until i can afford the full rigs, and then i could convert the mill and lathe when i finally determine i need them to be CNC.

Don't you just hate the planning phases? So many unknowns and options!

- Ryan

 

[mklotz]

My contention is that it is impossible to do a satisfying shop layout a priori. No matter how good a job you do with your computer programs, paper cutouts, etc. you will never fully model your own working idiosyncrasies or the unanticipated constraints imposed by the machines you'll eventually install.

If I had your constraints...

major tools not yet purchased but anticipating small tools
rental garage implying the need to move everything at some point in the future

and wanted to get started now, I would do something like the following...

Build four identical, sturdy, elbow-height wooden tables with a 2 x 2' top made of 3/4" marine plywood. Buy two commercial rolling drawer cabinets and fit them with a 2 x 2' top adjusted to the same height as the tables.

Now, when you get your lathe and mill, you can put these six elements together in all sorts of combinations until you work out a layout that works for your projects and your work flow. If you eventually decide that you really want a large workbench, these tables will easily convert to dedicated tool stands for the like of grinders, DPs, etc.. Plus, they will be easy to move should you need to in the future. Even if your final shop layout is completely unlike your initial layout, the time spent building these small modular benches will not have been wasted.

Some hints from my own experience:

Construct at least one or two of the tables so you can sit at them with your legs underneath.

Arrange the top so the front overhangs the base by about 2" so that you can clamp stuff to them.

Put a junction box on the front of the table with a heavy duty cord so tools can be plugged in without their cords lying all over the bench top. The junction box should have one switched outlet and two conventional outlets.

 

[Rayanth]

Thanks for the input, mklotz.

I agree with your contention on shop layout. I don't expect to get it right the first time. I was trying to ask more for ideas I can consider, in regards to general placement. Do people find it easier to keep the lathe right next to the mill, or opposite the mill, etc. The responses so far have given me a great deal to think about

I had honestly not considered having outlets on the front of the workbench. I love to lean, due to a bad back (who doesn't have a bad back these days?) and thought that would just end up getting in the way. perhaps on the side... hmm.

2x2 seems a bit small for a workbench to me, but i might go 2x4, following the rest of your suggestions. I live close enough to my dad, who's a licensed electrician, he can do all the electrical work I need. And if I get the place I'm hoping to get for rent, he happens to be the handyman for the company that manages that unit, too ;D My initial thoughts on the workbench was to have under-slung drawers right under the work surface. So if I have, say, a workbench for my lathe, my most commonly used lathe tools would be in the drawer right underneath it, readily accessible.

I am also looking at other uses for the shop. I would love to get back into my R/C hobbies. I understand that metal dust and flakes like to get everywhere in the shop, so I will have to consider a curtain or something to keep the R/C electronics safe. Or just do the electrical stuff in the dining room. I also do some fine scale modeling, but that can remain in the dining room.

- Ryan

 

[Rayanth]

Just looked back at page 1 and it looks like I missed a couple of posts, or details in posts.

To answer one question, yes safety is a high priority for me. I work as an assembler for 'machines' that weigh upwards of 50 tons (and yet they fly!) And safety is drilled into us every day at work. I have prescription safety glasses already, as we're required to wear safety glasses if we so much as set foot in the factory, and the company practically encourages us to bring any 'disposable' safety devices home with us for use in our hobbies. Ear plugs, safety glasses, gloves, shin and arm guards, ergonomics, etc.

Another post led me to look at Grizzly machines, as an alternative. I haven't looked into the possibility of converting these to CNC, but they have such a wide variety of machines, two questions came up:

Combo mill/lathe or lathe/mill machines look like a good way to save space and movement in the shop, are they more trouble than they are worth?

In a similar vein, they don't show much for smaller scale mills, but have lots listed in mill/drills. Is there a key difference that I should look out for?

You guys have been awesome with the dispensing of advice, and I will not hesitate to share my own wisdom when it comes time

- ryan

 

[mklotz]

Thanks for the input, mklotz.

No formality here. Call me Marv.

I agree with your contention on shop layout. I don't expect to get it right the first time. I was trying to ask more for ideas I can consider, in regards to general placement. Do people find it easier to keep the lathe right next to the mill, or opposite the mill, etc. The responses so far have given me a great deal to think about

I doubt it matters where the lathe is wrt to the mill. One is never back and forth between them so frequently that their relative placement is a concern. More important is the access space *around* the two tools.

I had honestly not considered having outlets on the front of the workbench. I love to lean, due to a bad back (who doesn't have a bad back these days?) and thought that would just end up getting in the way. perhaps on the side... hmm.

I put mine on the left/right side of the square wooden posts that hold up the workbench. That makes them easily accessible without getting in the way.

2x2 seems a bit small for a workbench to me, but i might go 2x4, following the rest of your suggestions. I live close enough to my dad, who's a licensed electrician, he can do all the electrical work I need. And if I get the place I'm hoping to get for rent, he happens to be the handyman for the company that manages that unit, too ;D My initial thoughts on the workbench was to have under-slung drawers right under the work surface. So if I have, say, a workbench for my lathe, my most commonly used lathe tools would be in the drawer right underneath it, readily accessible.

My idea was to have several small tables that could be combined in various layouts to test the layout utility and establish what you might want to build in the future as a more permanent layout. I chose 2 x 2 because that makes a useful size for a small table (e.g., a grinder/sander stand) when you abandon the modular concept for a permanent layout.

Obviously, nothing I suggested is cast in concrete. Make what your materials and personal esthetics suggest but try to arrange things so the modular units can be used later in a more permanent shop.

 

[Rayanth]

Marv, hadn't known a name to call you by other than the handle =)

It's funny how the brain works. millions of neurons firing in a careful symphony... yet occasionally a few fire off that make an intuitive leap based on an almost unrelated input.

Such is the case when you said 'modular'

My idea now is to build the 2x2 tables as you suggest but without a finished worktop. There will be 2x2 finished worktops, and 2x4 finished worktops. If I want a small bench, I can put the 2x2 top on it, and place it where needed. If I want a 2x4, I can put two of the stands together and put the one worktop on it. Modular at its finest! Of course now I have to modify the proposal for the electrical boxes... perhaps mounted to a leg, or something...

 

[dwentz]

Ryan,

The general advice is to stay away from the combo machines. They are very limited in what they can do, and many times you take a work piece back and forth from the mill and the lathe, and you have to completely re-set up the combo for each operation. The rigidity is not their in the mill section on most of them as they share the lathe compound as a milling table. That said there is a lot of fine work by people that use a combo machine.

The term mill/drill is usually associated with mills that have the head of the mill which moves up and down, instead of the work table like on a knee mill. They can also have a quill. You want to stay away from the ones with the round vertical column. Their biggest downfall is that if you have to change the head position on a mill with a round column you loose all registration with the work piece and have to relocate your centers or edges again. The square column units ride on dovetails so when you move them everything stays in alignment if the machine is set up correctly.

Dale

 

[mklotz]

While I endorse Dale's recommendation to get a square column mill now that they are widely available, I'd like to point out that I believe George (Britnell) uses a round column mill/drill. One look at his work should convince you that the shape of the column can be accommodated quite handily.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Like others have said the next step up in size from the Sherline /taig size is the popular seig C2/c3 lathe and x 2 mill. sold by grizzly . these can and have been converted to cnc the mill more than the lathe but both are doable and plans available. I converted an x-2 to cnc and considered converting my lathe. Then I came across a Deal on another small lathe that was a better candidate for cnc.
the general consensus on the combos is to much time spent changing set ups and limited work area.
I started with wooden benches then got a deal on a couple of Craftsmen benches form sears 5 ft long 4 drawers on one side cabinet on the other. It is nice to have a hand work bench like marv said I mad a jewelers bench . Unfortunaly the cnc machines are taking it up right now.
Tin

 

[Sshire]

I'm in the same position. Waiting for mill and lathe to arrive. I believe I have gotten what I need (according to the posts here) to get started. Hadn't thought about files. What types, lengths, brands should I get as a start?
Thanks

Stan

 

[Maryak]

Stan,

For model work you probably don't need to go outside a range of 4" - 8" length.

Next lets look at shapes. Flat, 1/2 round, square, triangular and round.

Finally the cut. Coarse called bastard, medium called 2nd cut and fine called smooth. There are further variances on this theme such as mill bastard mill etc. and specials such as needle files but stick with the 3 basics for a start.

The 2nd cut can be given a miss because there are some 27 files in the above range and that works out to quite a few dollars for good quality files.

Just my suggestion and I hope it helps.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[Rayanth]

Has anyone ever set up shop in a carpeted room? What sorts of protection can be reliably used to protect the carpet from swarf and oil and other stuff? Provided i'll be using tabletop machines, I imagine the workbench can have protection built in, but input would be highly useful.

The rental I am looking at has a one car garage but it only has a lighting circuit to my knowledge and may not have outlets. So i'm thinking of using one of the bedrooms.

Input is greatly appreciated

- Ryan

 

[steamer]

Ryan

Carpet is a bad idea....can you roll the carpet up?....leave it up until you leave and no one will be the wiser.

If you must, get a cooking pan big enough for the lathe and or mill to sit inside of

I did that at my first apartment, and that kept stuff off the carpet...most of the time

Dave

 

[willburrrr2003]

I am almost ready to go into production on a fly fishing trainer, will be making it on my CNC-Minilathe that is in its final stages. I will be getting business lic, filing patent paperwork, manufacturing them myself, and selling them to fly shops local first and then if goes well, will expand coverage area out from WA to other States, and possibly onto the net as well.

Regards,

Will R. Everett, WA.

Speaking of income- does anyone actually make money off of their hobby or tooling?

Ryan

 

[Tin Falcon]

I started making pen and pencil sets when I started out. probably over a hundred sets over time gave alot aq way but sold some as well paid for a good chunk of tooling. .

 

[ChooChooMike]

Has anyone ever set up shop in a carpeted room? What sorts of protection can be reliably used to protect the carpet from swarf and oil and other stuff? Provided i'll be using tabletop machines, I imagine the workbench can have protection built in, but input would be highly useful.

I have my Sherlines set up on a home made bench in my 2nd bedroom which is carpeted. I put down a couple of the large hard plastic chair mats (so chairs can roll around easier) that actually work pretty well.

They're available at any office supply store - Office Depot/Staples/etc. Search on "floor chair mat". Much easier to vacuum swarf up that way

Mike

 

[steamer]

Mike

That's a great idea!...A karma for you!

Dave

 

[Tin Falcon]

Google anti fatigue mat lots of choices many sizes available
2,3,4 ft wide by as long as 60 ft.

U-line mats
Tin

 

[jtrout13]

If you do much boring or press fitting, a set of bore gauges are a must.