Setting up Shop Questions - from an NZ learner

[rodw]

Re bandsaws, whilst there is nothing wrong with the one you've chosen, If you can raise the budget to this one, you'll find life much easier
http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/B003

The reason I suggest this is that I took a second hand one like you are looking at home from Hare and Forbes and promptly returned it. I then bought the next one up new (it was similar but since discontinued). I wore it out in a few years. Down side is that it is very hard to get to cut straight (crimping a metal ruler between the guide rollers and running it up and down along a set square help a lot).
I then purchased the one linked to above. The green one is made in Taiwan, double the weight, has a bigger throat and is much better built. With a cast in back guide, its much easier to get to cut square. I would have loved to get this one http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/B006 but did not have the space.

You are on the right track, bandsaws are much more versatile, cut unattended while you do something else and are soo much cleaner than a metal chop saw. They are also quite dangerous, I put 6 stitches in my finger last week courtesy of this saw and a 6 TPI blade.....

 

[joco-nz]

Bandsaw locked and loaded.

Its the same model as the starting hafco. Just from a local shop in Petone. Delivery on Tuesday.

Budget kept the model options to the lower limit. Originally I wasnt going to get a bandsaw and was going to rely on a home made powered hacksaw. So this was an unplanned expense. I think ultimately worth it but still unplanned.

I am going to need to come up with a quick and accurate way of setting the clamp at some key angles to the blade. 90 and 45 being the obvious ones. Sounds like a litte jig project. :thumbup:

Having looked at this in store I already intend to upgrade the "table" that is used when in the vertical position. It needs a bit of plate steel, pobably ~4mm instead of the whussy pressed sheet stuff that comes with it.

XD351 - for the upgrades to the bandsaw, do you have that on a thread? If not would you be able to take some pics of what you feel are the best improvements you made and post them with and relevnat commentary?

Cheers,
James.

 

[DJP]

I have the same saw for the past 30 years or more. Rockwell design copy, I think. It has cut lots of steel for me. Be sure to get a few HSS blades as spares. They last a long time but fail in the middle of a project as always.

I marked the bed with a chisel punch for various angles of the vise fixed plate but don't just measure and mark. It's best to measure, cut a test piece, confirm the angle then mark it. There is play in the mounting hardware to mess you up.

It's a tough little saw.

 

[goldstar31]

Walking before running, please. This is a 6 x 4 band saw and under that description there is a wealth of internet information.

Incidentally, I'm on my second one.

Regards

Norman

 

[joco-nz]

I see a lot of comments that bi-metal blades are the go. Does that mean HSS or something else?

 

[bruedney]

Hi James

These are the blades I get for my bandsaw

http://www.bandsaw.co.nz/products/bi-metal-blades/bi-metal-blade-13mm-x-10/14-tpi

Cheers

Bruce

 

[XD351]

I never had any luck with the standard starrett blades but the bi metal ones may be better , i found a saw blade manufacturer up in Queensland that sold the correct size bi metal blades at a lower price of what hare and forbes wanted so bought three blades and I'm now on my second blade after about 4 yrs of intermittent usage .
The last blade did not break the part moved in the vice and ripped a few teeth off a section of blade .
One tip is if the saw is not going to be used for a while loosen the tension on the blade.

 

[XD351]

Bandsaw locked and loaded.

Its the same model as the starting hafco. Just from a local shop in Petone. Delivery on Tuesday.



Budget kept the model options to the lower limit. Originally I wasnt going to get a bandsaw and was going to rely on a home made powered hacksaw. So this was an unplanned expense. I think ultimately worth it but still unplanned.



I am going to need to come up with a quick and accurate way of setting the clamp at some key angles to the blade. 90 and 45 being the obvious ones. Sounds like a litte jig project. :thumbup:



Having looked at this in store I already intend to upgrade the "table" that is used when in the vertical position. It needs a bit of plate steel, pobably ~4mm instead of the whussy pressed sheet stuff that comes with it.



XD351 - for the upgrades to the bandsaw, do you have that on a thread? If not would you be able to take some pics of what you feel are the best improvements you made and post them with and relevnat commentary?



Cheers,

James.

Most if not all of the mods are on youtube , the main one is the hydraulic - arm lowering unit search for the halligan 142 channel he did a series on it .
The extended vice jaws is nothing more than some 75x10 flatbar bolted to the original jaws , it just extends the jaws closer to the blade , there is a jacking bolt on the other end of the clamping jaw that can be set to stop that jaw swivelling when cutting short items .
I wouldn't worry too much about these enhancements yet , pay more attention to getting it set up so it cuts nice and square it's not the horizontal plane that is a problem as the vice is easily adjusted but the vertical plane is the issue as the blade cut inwards or outwards of the 90 deg you want .
To set angles i just use a combination square , hold the base against the blade and the rule is used to set the jaw to the angle 90 or 45 deg .
Remember the bandsaw is not a precision instrument , if you need extreme accuracy it's time for the sine bar to come out and set the piece up on the mill !
Better to take baby steps for now rather than leaps and bounds as you can always take a step backwards if you get lost , if you take a giant leap it can be difficult to find where you leapt from !
I would be more concerned with getting the lathe set up and start using it because it is the foundation machine that a model engineers workshop is built around .

 

[joco-nz]

XD351 - thanks and good points. Trying to make space for said lathe! :wall: oh:

 

[joco-nz]

The welding adventure continues. Cut up the angle steel I had so I could practice some joints. Having fun and learning lots. Probably todays biggest win was re-reading the auto darkening helmet manual and realising with the amps I am running I had the shade to dark. What a difference fixing that made. I could finally see what the weld pool actually looked like!

This running 2.4mm 6013 electrode @ 90amp. Today I got my steel rule out and measured the steel, it is 5mm thick.


I also had a cunning plan to get some space back in the garage. Using one or two of these I can get some stuff stored outside. I'm thinking some garden tools and a chunk of emergency water in case of earth quake.
https://www.bunnings.co.nz/tyson-toolbox-plastic-1450mm-black_p00678849

 

[goldstar31]

Walking before running, please. This is a 6 x 4 band saw and under that description there is a wealth of internet information.

Incidentally, I'm on my second one.

Regards

Norman

Adding to my earlier comments, I would suggest that you read the efforts of John Moran in GadgetBuilder.com.

He also gives a lot of practical advice about the far more complex requirements of model engineering. He draws upon what other people have achieved and tests them. Worth a read.

In addition, I found his tool and cutter grinding stuff quite interesting especially for those who want to develop their new found competences.

 

[rodw]

I see a lot of comments that bi-metal blades are the go. Does that mean HSS or something else?

They have a mix of teeth so you can use them to cut different material without changing blades. I have never been able to find them for my saw so I swap blades. 6tpi for cutting ally, plastic and fingers, 14tpi for steel...

 

[XD351]

Looks like your lead angle is wrong or you are weaving the rod and by the amount of spatter your arc length may be too long .
But for a beginner not too bad .
You will always get a burn through like that at the end unless you do one of two things :
Pre weld that end or use a runoff plate.
I would suggest doing some runs on some 6 or 8 mm plate or similar , just run some beads and look for consistent width as this indicates your weld speed is consistent.
Think of your correct angles by starting with your rod perpendicular to the plate i.e. 90 deg In both planes Now lay the rod over in the direction you weld - you look like a righty so weld left to right .
The angle should be 70 deg so the arc is trailing your hand .
You can let the rod sit on on the workpiece as the arc will burn the metal electrode up inside the flux coating , don't push down just let it ride there and some like to use both hands by feeding the rod through their fingers like a cigarette so don't be scared to guide the rod with your other hand .
Sit down and lean against your bench or something as the more stable you are the better .

The trick with welding helmets is to start off dark and work down in shades until you can see but if it is making you squint behind your helmet you have gone too far , always safer to be a shade darker than you need until you get used to it , welding flash is not nice trust me !
Oh i nearly forgot - sooner or later you will burn yourself - it will happen it's part of the job !
We are here to help !

 

[joco-nz]

XD351 - thanks. I've been very conscious of the angle and have been leaning the stick forward towards the direction of travel. I was weaving a little bit but perhaps with the stick I don't need to or shouldn't.

Agree re running the beads, just don't have any scrap plate yet and still working out the places to get such stuff.

I suspect at the moment the 90amps might be a bit hot. I rewatched some of ChuckE2009's vids on common stick problems and his "to hot" demo had a lot of similar characteristics to mine. I think I need to dial back to ~80amps. There are probably other factors at play but at least I am very aware of arc length, stick angle and trying to keep a consistent speed when doing the work. It's all practice and I have barely started clocking up helmet time.

I'm running shade 9 per the helmets manual, I think I will move it to half way between 9 & 10. Just a little darker will, I think, be a wee bit more comfortable.

I'll have another play tomorrow.

Cheers,
James.

 

[joco-nz]

Hi James

These are the blades I get for my bandsaw

http://www.bandsaw.co.nz/products/bi-metal-blades/bi-metal-blade-13mm-x-10/14-tpi

Bruce - you just order a 1640mm length blade to fit yours? Or something more exact per the manual: 1638mm.

Cheers,
J.

 

[goldstar31]

Bruce - you just order a 1640mm length blade to fit yours? Or something more exact per the manual: 1638mm.

Cheers,
J.

Actually 56.5 inches but if you have to rejoin or make a blade there is sufficient adjustment on the adjustable pulley. Scarf jointing with silver soldering is probably next on the menu.

Oh just a hint. I use a couple of toolmakers' clamps to set the blade vertically- in the cutting part. Tool makers clamps are another simple but invaluable accessory which 'proper' people make. Very useful and one's first introduction to using taps and dies. And then you make holders- and - it never stops.

Hint- if you don't make some of your tooling you will soon wear out your wallet spanner:hDe:

 

[rodw]

Bandsaws are without doubt the cheapest metal cutting tool in relation to consumables. You have enough to learn for a while. Just grab a 14 tpi blade for steel and a 6tpi for aluminum. You can cut ally with 14 tpi but its slower than it needs to be. If you are cutting thinwalled tube, maybe grab a 18 tpi one as well. Keep 1 blade spare. When starting out, make your spare 14 tpi. I keep 1 of each. If your saw is well adjusted, they last a very long time.

If a bimetal blade is available for your machine, it will be all you need. If its not available, keep it simple for now and stick with blades that are available fo it.

 

[joco-nz]

Actually 56.5 inches but if you have to rejoin or make a blade there is sufficient adjustment on the adjustable pulley. Scarf jointing with silver soldering is probably next on the menu.

Oh just a hint. I use a couple of toolmakers' clamps to set the blade vertically- in the cutting part. Tool makers clamps are another simple but invaluable accessory which 'proper' people make. Very useful and one's first introduction to using taps and dies. And then you make holders- and - it never stops.

Hint- if you don't make some of your tooling you will soon wear out your wallet spanner:hDe:

Yup plan is to make a lot of tools, my self imposed apprenticeship. Mind you I just like making things.
I have a number of the Workshop Series books covering tools/workshop accessories and The Model Engineers Workshop Manual. So lots of instructions to build tools. :thumbup:

 

[bruedney]

Bruce - you just order a 1640mm length blade to fit yours? Or something more exact per the manual: 1638mm.

Cheers,
J.

Hi James

I order a 1640mm

Cheers

Bruce

 

[DJP]

If you are using 6013/7014 rods they are coated in a flux that also contains steel powder. They are the easiest rods to use so great to start off. I wouldn't worry about an arc being too hot. You need penetration of heat for a good solid weld and the cosmetics are secondary, in my opinion. Multiple pass welding is also the standard which most people ignore looking for that perfect filet in one pass. If you want strength you need penetration of heat and multiple passes.

Vertical welding is tricky and it requires smaller rods. The 6013 type creates too much of a puddle that will drop unless you have the technique just perfect.

For really nice welds consider using 307 or 316 Low Hydrogen stainless rods. They conduct heat better and the results are shiny welds with one tap to remove the slag coating.

That's one of my tests for a nice weld.... if the slag flies off in one piece with one hit from a chipping hammer.

A welder is one tool that you can use to make more tools. For that reason it is priceless and should be part of every shop set up.

That said, be sure that you have a safe welding area with extinguisher within reach. I keep a couple of 1 litre bottles of water close by for the small problems and the extinguisher is at the doorway where I would escape. Clothing is important too. Exposed skin and eyes will burn quickly due to UV radiation and clothes need to be safe. Heavy cotton is best as only a hole will burn through. Synthetic clothes melt which is bad news.

My most recent enhancement to the shop was not tools but metal siding on the ceiling and walls. I used recovered tin sheets from an old barn and lined the entire shop. The place is more fire restraint and it cleans up easily.

Last suggestion... I installed an old furnace blower in the ceiling to extract welding fumes. Some are really dangerous like welding galvanized coated steel and scraps that are painted can be welded but in the process the paint is burnt off. If you can weld outdoors that is best and in bright sun light a dark mask shade will still let win light to see the job before the arc starts. I still use the old style mask and leave the auto darkening one for guests who want to see the process or try it themselves.

Just a few more thoughts for your consideration.

Yes HSS saw blades are the bi-metalic type and I only stock 14 tpi. When cutting hollow tube I hold the frame in my hand so that I can control the drop during the vertical wall cutting. That's when a tooth can break off the blade. WD40 in a spray bottle also keeps blades lasting longer. Old worn out blades cut into small pieces can be used as spacers for lathe tooling. There is no end to uses once you have the saw.